Return-Path: Sender: (Marvin Kaye) To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:17:38 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.35] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b1) with ESMTP id 3132001 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:19:21 -0500 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id q.20.257404cd (25305) for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:19:16 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <20.257404cd.2d98b774@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:19:16 EST Subject: Reply to Re: [LML] Re: Reply to Reply on "lower EGT temps" X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1080515956" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 810 -------------------------------1080515956 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en George, Darn, this is fun when we address more esoteric issues. Hopefully, we can=20 all learn more. After all, I was finally convinced that there is a place a= nd=20 time for operating LOP.=20 See my posted reply to "RE Relative Temps?" for basic info about my =20 experimental aircraft operation. Then, Jumping to your conclusion: <<<<<>>>>>> My system is not "most", therefore the argument is categorically rejected =20 for lack of experience specifically with LASAR, unless you know something ab= out =20 it that I don't. Note that "a pretty good job" is not good enough, 'cept for= =20 spam cans. Unison states that their magnetos do not produce consistent sparks. If tha= t=20 is so, only one plug may initiate the the burn with a less than optimal=20 double flame front. This is exactly why the one Electronic Ignition (EI) -= one=20 magneto sytem may perform better than two mags, but not better than two EIs= .=20 Before that you said: <<<<>>>>> Well, maybe that's how you want to explain it. All things being equal =20 (sure!) if the EI always sparks and the mags mostly spark, the EI is more o= ften=20 going to burn the gas in the right place. Ergo, the temperature patterns ca= n be=20 different. Maybe this does alter the peak pressure point. Maybe 4-cylinde= r=20 engines are just built tougher. Maybe mine is going to blow up tomorrow=20 because it is working harder? Maybe we will learn more when I get more dat= a as=20 outlined in my post "RE Relative temps." Maybe other alien ignition system= =20 users will add to the data. George, the rest of your reply completely befuddles me. Since I can't =20 provide a URL for the PRISM page, hopefully, the reader can get thru this co= py off=20 that page (assuming LML does not scramble it): PRISM=E2=84=A2 (Pressure Reactive Intelligent Spark Management) Features: =E2=80=A2Optimized Spark Timing to achieve maximum brake torque =E2=80=A2Simple, fewer moving parts, fiber optic design =E2=80=A2Increased horsepower at all power settings=20 =E2=80=A2Smoother engine operation- reduces coefficient of variation of com= bustion-=20 even on lean mixtures =E2=80=A2More efficient engine operation-CDI produces larger spark at optim= ized time=20 BTDC =E2=80=A2Replaces both magnetos- no overhaul required prior to TBO =E2=80=A2Fully redundant design- proven electronic durability with quad red= undant=20 ignition =E2=80=A2Includes GAMI's _Supplenator=E2=84=A2_ (http://www.gami.com/supplen= ator.html) =20 Supplemental Alternator- back-up power to primary alternator and battery an= d=20 GAMI's _PDU=E2=84=A2_ (http://www.gami.com/pdupostersmall.jpg) Panel Displa= y Unit =20 =E2=80=A2Automatic detection/prevention of detonation=20 =E2=80=A2Maintains lower peak cylinder pressures- reduced loads on power tr= ain=20 components, longer engine life =E2=80=A2Allows for the future use of lower octane, unleaded fuels. This is=20= the only=20 system on the millennial horizon that is inherently compatible with lower=20 octane, unleaded fuels. =E2=80=A2Champion=C2=AE ignition components (spark plugs, wires, coils)=20 =E2=80=A2Optional panel display of actual real-time horsepower and torque =E2=80=A2Optional digital tachometer =E2=80=A2Optional extensive on-board engine diagnostic capability =E2=80=A2Improved fuel economy- lower BSFCs than previously possible =E2=80=A2Significantly lower EGTs/TITs for reduced exhaust system maintenan= ce FAA STC certification expected soon! It sure sounds better than LASAR since I can't get any real onboard=20 diagostics. =20 Let's see, more HP, reduces variation of combustion, larger spark, improved=20= =20 fuel economy, lower EGTs -- Gee it must be an EI. Of course, yours does mo= re=20 than LASAR, but some of the fundamental concepts are similar. So, when you say: <<<>> 1. You mean the PRISM system doesn't use modern electronic ignition=20 components and controls, including timing? << =20 I am a bit confused by this comment, and I don't know what the reference=20 was to this. =20 The issue is NOT how the spark is generated - - it can be a big box of=20 quick matches set off by Santa's little helpers, for all I care - - but t= he=20 issue is what is the effect of the nature and timing of the event that init= iates=20 combustion on the resulting important stuff that happens in the combustion=20 chamber after the combustion event is started.>>>>> I asked that question tongue-in-cheek. PRISM is clearly an EI. Unless you= =20 are the ghost writer for Richard Clarke, I find the "box of matches" commen= t=20 to be disingenuous. You already know that a consistently presented and tim= ed=20 spark is crucial for combustion events better than "pretty good." Later, you reply thusly: <<<<<>> 3. Do you mean that the spark energy, shape, duration and=20 consistency is of the same quality for electronic ignitions and magnetos? =20= << =20 No. In some cases, it is worse for electronic ignitions !! =20 But, properly done, electronic ignitions can improve on the important=20 aspects of the initiating sparks that start the combustion events. It jus= t=20 requires that the electronic stuff be originally designed with a really tho= rough=20 understanding of what is important about the combustion events. From what= I=20 have observed, this is not always the case. >>>>>>>> Again, the "NO" would have been adequate. Of course, you have to qualify i= t=20 with "some cases", fixed later with "Properly done" and deflated later with= =20 "this is not always the case. Frankly, I am only presently concerned with=20= my=20 case and the data which I am capable of collecting. I am trying to learn=20 but there is no learning when you try to tell me only how things fail to wo= rk. Then, you replied: <<<<<<>> 4. Are you telling me that our excess fuel delivery systems are so= =20 good that no combustion is occurring in the exhaust pipe near the EGT probe= ?=20 << =20 No. Not sure how that plays into this discussion. Later effective=20 combustion ignition events will result in higher EGTs. Earlier effective c= ombustion=20 ignition events will result in lower EGTS, assuming nobody has changed the= =20 camshaft in the mean time!>>>>>>>> Uh, "Not sure how this plays into the discussion." It seems to me that it=20 is critical to part of this discussion. I guess "later combustion ignition= =20 events" could be where one of the flame fronts doesn't get started at all.=20= "In=20 some cases," this could even be from timing mismatches between magnetos, no= t=20 to mention the occasional failure to fire at all. Anyway, "No" is helpful. Finally: <<<<<>> 5. Do you mean that magnetos deliver a consistent spark (time,=20 duration and strength) 100% of the time when one manufacturer states that t= here=20 can be magneto spark impairments of up to 10% of the time? And, that this=20 deficient combustion in the cylinder might lead to some combustion completi= on in=20 the pipe? << =20 No. ..........There is some variability in the magneto spark events and=20 the electronic spark events. However, on properly maintained magnetos, =20= it=20 does not result in anything like the kinds of changes in EGTs that you are= =20 reporting.>>>>>>>> Well, we shall see from the tests that I am going to run. BTW, what kind o= f=20 EGT drops are seen with PRISM? I know they occur because PRISM claims a=20 "significant" drop. Unison predicts 70-90 degrees on the LASAR (if I remem= ber=20 correctly). Maybe this is what Cy meant by "relative." I look forward to the duel between my mags and the EI. Each slugging it out= =20 in the bowels of my wee cylinders, head studs struggling to restrain piston= =20 and pin from separating -- with fuel, spark and air combined properly to=20 constrain the potential runaway chain-reaction from endangering any planet=20= earth=20 species that happen to be in the vicinity. Carpe Diem! Scott Krueger=20 PS, Yes, Walter was a bit cryptic. "Most" people probably wish I were, too. PPS I do hope that the EI and electronic injection systems on my 1800cc=20 twin-v motorcycle are OK - I don't like where one of the jugs is aimed. Of= =20 course, the CU utilizes at least the MAP, RPM, Induction air temp and an O2= sensor=20 in the exhaust to optimize HP and Torque through a wide range of throttle=20 positions, especially when twisted to WOT.=20 -------------------------------1080515956 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
George,
 
Darn, this is fun when we address more esoteric issues. =20 Hopefully, we can all learn more.  After all, I was finally convinced t= hat=20 there is a place and time for operating LOP. 
 
See my posted reply to "RE Relative Temps?" for basic info about m= y=20 experimental aircraft operation.  Then,
 
Jumping to your conclusion:
 
<<<<<<Frankly,  at high power and rpm, properly=20 maintained magnetos do a pretty good job in terms of the "quality"  of=20= the=20 spark,  and most electronic ignition systems don't do much better in te= rms=20 of the quality of the spark.  >>>>>>>
 
My system is not "most", therefore the argument is categorically reject= ed=20 for lack of experience specifically with LASAR, unless you know something ab= out=20 it that I don't. Note that "a pretty good job" is not good enough, 'cept for= =20 spam cans.
 
Unison states that their magnetos do not produce consistent=20 sparks.  If that is so, only one plug may initiate the the burn with a=20= less=20 than optimal double flame front.  This is exactly why the one Electroni= c=20 Ignition (EI) - one magneto sytem may perform better than two mags, but= =20 not better than two EIs. 
 
Before that you said:
 
<<<<<There is ONLY one explanation that is consistent wi= th=20 all of the data that I have seen.   The EFFECTIVE timing, as measu= red=20 by  the location of the peak of combustion pressure after TDC  *IS= *=20 changing significantly.>>>>>>
 
Well, maybe that's how you want to explain it.  All things being e= qual=20 (sure!) if the EI always sparks and the mags mostly spark, the EI is more=20 often going to burn the gas in the right place. Ergo, the=20 temperature patterns can be different.  Maybe this does alter the peak=20 pressure point.  Maybe 4-cylinder engines are just built tougher. = =20 Maybe mine is going to blow up tomorrow because it is working harder? =20 Maybe we will learn more when I get more data as outlined in my post "RE=20 Relative temps."  Maybe other alien ignition system users will add to t= he=20 data.
 
George, the rest of your reply completely befuddles me.  Since I c= an't=20 provide a URL for the PRISM page, hopefully, the reader can get thru this co= py=20 off that page (assuming LML does not scramble it):
 
PRISM=E2=84=A2
(Pressure Reactive=20 Intelligent Spark Management)

Features:
=E2=80=A2Optimized Spark Timing to achi= eve maximum=20 brake torque

=E2=80=A2Simple, fewer moving parts, fiber optic=20 design

=E2=80=A2Increased horsepower at all power settings

= =E2=80=A2Smoother=20 engine operation- reduces coefficient of variation of combustion- even on le= an=20 mixtures

=E2=80=A2More efficient engine operation-CDI produces larger= spark at=20 optimized time BTDC

=E2=80=A2Replaces both magnetos- no overhaul requ= ired prior=20 to TBO

=E2=80=A2Fully redundant design- proven electronic durability=20= with quad=20 redundant ignition

=E2=80=A2Includes GAMI's Supplenator=E2=84=A2 Suppl= emental=20 Alternator- back-up power to primary alternator and battery and GAMI's PDU=E2=84=A2 Panel Displ= ay Unit=20

=E2=80=A2Automatic detection/prevention of detonation

=E2= =80=A2Maintains lower=20 peak cylinder pressures- reduced loads on power train components, longer eng= ine=20 life

=E2=80=A2Allows for the future use of lower octane, unleaded fue= ls. This is=20 the only system on the millennial horizon that is inherently compatible with= =20 lower octane, unleaded fuels.

=E2=80=A2Champion=C2=AE ignition compon= ents (spark=20 plugs, wires, coils)

=E2=80=A2Optional panel display of actual real-= time=20 horsepower and torque

=E2=80=A2Optional digital tachometer

= =E2=80=A2Optional=20 extensive on-board engine diagnostic capability

=E2=80=A2Improved fue= l economy-=20 lower BSFCs than previously possible

=E2=80=A2Significantly lower EGT= s/TITs for=20 reduced exhaust system maintenance

FAA STC certification expected=20 soon!

It sure sounds better than LASAR since I can't get any real= =20 onboard diagostics. 
 
Let's see, more HP, reduces variation of combustion, larger spark, impr= oved=20 fuel economy, lower EGTs -- Gee it must be an EI.  Of course, yours doe= s=20 more than LASAR, but some of the fundamental concepts are similar.
 
So, when you say:
 
<<<>> 1. You mean the PRISM system doesn'= t=20 use modern electronic ignition components and controls, including=20 timing? <<  
 
I am a bit confused by this comment,&n= bsp;=20 and I don't know what the reference was to this.  
 
The issue is NOT how the spark is gene= rated=20 - -  it can be a big box of quick matches set off by Santa's littl= e=20 helpers,  for all I care - -  but the issue is what is the ef= fect=20 of the nature and timing of the event that initiates combustion on the=20 resulting important stuff that happens in the combustion chamber after the=20 combustion event is started.>>>>>
 
I asked that question tongue-in-cheek.=  =20 PRISM is clearly an EI.  Unless you are the ghost writer for Richard=20 Clarke, I find the "box of matches" comment to be disingenuous.  You=20 already know that a consistently presented and timed spark is=20 crucial for combustion events better than "pretty=20 good."
 
Later, you reply thusly:
 
<<<<<>> 3. D= o you=20 mean that the spark energy, shape, duration and consistency is of the same=20 quality for electronic ignitions and magnetos?   <<=20
 
No.  In some cases, it is wo= rse=20 for electronic ignitions !!   
 
But,  properly done, electro= nic=20 ignitions can improve on the important aspects of the initiating sparks that= =20 start the combustion events.   It just requires that the electroni= c=20 stuff be originally designed with a really thorough understanding of wh= at=20 is important about the combustion events.   From what I have=20 observed,  this is not always the case. =20 >>>>>>>>
 
Again, the "NO" would have been=20 adequate.  Of course, you have to qualify it with "some cases", fixed l= ater=20 with "Properly done" and deflated later with "this is not always the case.&n= bsp;=20 Frankly, I am only presently concerned with my case and the data which I am=20 capable of collecting.  I am trying to learn but there is no learning w= hen=20 you try to tell me only how things fail to work.
 
Then, you replied:
 
<<<<<<>> = 4. Are=20 you telling me that our excess fuel delivery systems are so good that no=20 combustion is occurring in the exhaust pipe near the EGT probe? <<=20
 
No.  Not sure how that plays into= this=20 discussion.   Later effective combustion ignition events will= =20 result in higher EGTs.  Earlier effective combustion ignition events wi= ll=20 result in lower EGTS,  assuming nobody has changed the camshaft in the=20= mean=20 time!>>>>>>>>
 
Uh, "Not sure how this plays into the=20 discussion."  It seems to me that it is critical to part of t= his=20 discussion.  I guess "later combustion ignition events" could be where=20= one=20 of the flame fronts doesn't get started at all.  "In some cases," this=20 could even be from timing mismatches between magnetos, not to mention the=20 occasional failure to fire at all.  Anyway, "No" is helpful.
 
Finally:
 
<<<<<>> 5. D= o you=20 mean that magnetos deliver a consistent spark (time, duration and strength)=20= 100%=20 of the time when one manufacturer states that there can be magneto spar= k=20 impairments of up to 10% of the time? And, that this deficien= t=20 combustion in the cylinder might lead to some combustion completion in the=20 pipe?  <<   =20
 
No.    ..........There is some variability in the magneto spark ev= ents=20 and the electronic spark events.   However,  on properly= =20 maintained magnetos,  it does not result in  anything like th= e=20 kinds of changes in EGTs that you are=20 reporting.>>>>>>>>
 
Well, we shall see from the tests that= I am=20 going to run.  BTW, what kind of EGT drops are seen with PRISM?  I= =20 know they occur because PRISM claims a "significant" drop.  Unison pred= icts=20 70-90 degrees on the LASAR (if I remember correctly).  Maybe this is wh= at=20 Cy meant by "relative."
 
I look forward to the duel between my=20= mags=20 and the EI. Each slugging it out in the bowels of my wee cylinders, head stu= ds=20 struggling to restrain piston and pin from separating -- with fuel, spark an= d=20 air combined properly to constrain the potential runaway chain-reaction from= =20 endangering any planet earth species that happen to be in the vicinity. = ;=20 Carpe Diem!
 
Scott Krueger 
 
PS, Yes, Walter was a bit cryptic. "Mo= st"=20 people probably wish I were, too.
 
PPS I do hope that the EI and electron= ic=20 injection systems on my 1800cc twin-v motorcycle are OK - I don't like=20 where one of the jugs is aimed.  Of course, the CU utilizes at least th= e=20 MAP, RPM, Induction air temp and an O2 sensor in the exhaust to optimize HP=20= and=20 Torque through a wide range of throttle positions, especially when twisted t= o=20 WOT. 
 
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