Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #23217
From: <Sky2high@aol.com>
Sender: Marvin Kaye <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: relative temps?
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:31:26 -0500
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
George,
 
Let's start with some history.
 
I had a 400 hour Don George 1992 Cermichromed I/O 320 with 9:1 pistons and a Hartzell carved (thickness tapers at the end), 70 inch constant speed prop.  I replaced BOTH Slick mags with the LASAR system (O 320 Control Unit (CU)), all timed for 25* BTDC.  I immediately experienced energetic takeoff runs, better climb rates and better performance ROP at altitude.  The EGTs were about 70 degrees cooler than similar power settings achieved with the old mags - The CHTs were 15 to 20 degrees higher.  I have not retained data from that era.
 
About 1.5 years ago, the engine was rebuilt with better breathing ECI Titan Cerminil cylinders, 9:1 pistons, a heavier crank and new one-piece cams by Air Craftsman in Prescott, AZ.  The prop blades were replaced with a Hartzell specified 84 inch prop cut down to 70 inches - without the "carved taper", i.e. they are thick at the tips.  This work was done by Warner Prop in Tuscon, AZ.  The engine was hung by a totally incompetent A&P in Sedona, AZ.
 
After re-hanging the engine, baffle adjustments, vibration eliminations, balancing the air to the injectors, etc. engine performance issues were addressed.  Last year, I noted here that the LASAR system was not performing as it had on the prior incarnation of the engine. I finally installed a switch to shut off the LASAR CU thus allowing me to run with the backup magnetos for comparison purposes.  It was discovered that the engine ran better on mags only than with the CU engaged.  This was diagnosed as bad relays in the lump in the mag pigtails that controls switching betwixt mag or CU so that both were engaged when the LASAR was engerized leading to worse performance than the mags alone.
 
I installed new LASAR mags (they perform the timing and spark distribution for the electronic system) and could not get the "sensor" mag closer than 29* BTDC.  Unison provided a replacement sensor mag which can only reach 26.5-27* BTDC, well within Unison's spec for + or - 3*.  Both are timed the same.  The sprightly takeoff runs, improved climb rate and general cruise performance returned. However, switching between mags only and LASAR (ROP, cruise at less than 24" MAP) did not show a difference in HP (speed) or fuel consumption except for .1 to maybe .2 gph.
 
A Unison rep went for a ride with me to try to clarify this but his engineering computer would not let him get beyond the password.  Note that Unison's proprietary (they won't tell me) timing maps depend on MAP and RPM - more on MAP and no timing alteration above 75% power (whatever that is) which is why operation above 26" MAP has no timing change, just a better, more robust spark.  However, also note that while I have fine wire plugs, the gap cannot be widened because the failure mode requires the plugs be gapped for backup magneto operation.
 
A final note to put this in perspective.  I use the Vision Microsystems EPI 800 engine monitor system - while digital, it is outmoded and limited because EGT and CHT temperatures are stepped in 8* increments and displayed to the nearest 10 degrees (I understand octal, just like my transponder digits).  Precise it is not.  Plus, I can only read one cylinder's temps at any given moment - I have to rotate a switch to see the others.
 
This last January 20th I made a flight from Chicago to Tampa, nonstop, 9500 ft, 40-50 degrees LOP, 7.4 gph, 192 KTAS, 30 gallons of gas, 3.9 hours and, at times, reaching 241 Kts ground speed.  I did switch off the LASAR for a short time and saw the fuel consumption increase by .4 to .5 gph while not changing any other engine management controls.  I reported general engine charactistics here as:
 
Over East Central IL at 9500 feet (-1*C OAT), Dalt 8840, 169 IAS, 192 TAS, 241 GS
22.4 MAP (WOT), 2510 RPM running 50*F LOP, 7.4 gph
  CHT EGT
1 320 1350
2 340 1350
3 350 1360
4 350 1360
 
WOW!
 
Now, as to your questions:
 
<<<<1)   What the engine EGTs   WOULD be if it had two properly timed
standard magnetos?>>>>
 
I will make a flight soon (weather permitting) at the same LOW non-turbulent altitude (MAP 26"), I will operate with and without the LASAR, leaned 150* ROP and 50* LOP and report back the temps.  Remember that my fixed timing is about 27* BTDC.
 
<<<<<< 2)       What the engine EGTs are on ONE magneto ?  Compared to ONE
Lasar System operating?>>>>>>>
 
Not possible as the current system is a two mag system. The standard run up ground mag check occurs by grounding one of the mags - operation switches automatically to mag only and LASAR resumes after no mag is grounded for 20 seconds.  I will not do this in the air as it has no meaning other than the puckering of a certain orifice.
 
<<<<<<3)       What the engine EGTs are on both of the standard backup mags in
the Lasar system operating without Lasar  doing its electronic thing?>>>>>
 
See my answer to #1.  And, I will make a flight soon (weather permitting) at the same HIGH non-turbulent altitude (MAP say 22"), I will operate with and without the LASAR, leaned 100* ROP and 40* LOP and report back the temps.  I have no idea of what the timing will be since I am currently using an O-360 CU where the O-320 CU has the most agressive timing map, the IO-360 CU is less agressive and the O-360 is least agressive (more conservative).  BTW, the Rockford, IL located Unison rep I was working with has left the building (changed employer).
 
<<<<<4)   And is this  70-90 degee drop observed at  full power ?  Or only in
cruise?   Or both?  >>>>>>>>
 
Okay, I'll make 2 takeoffs - maybe with a passenger to read the instruments whilst I peer out a the passing landscape.  Or maybe I'll just make two runs WOT, full rich, 2700 RPM, with and without LASAR, at 1000 AGL, turbulence permitting.
 
<<<<<If I take off in my engine at book  300 turbonormalized Hp, 22d magneto
spark timing, and book fuel flow,   the  EGTs will be operating around
1250 to 1300F.>>>>>
 
I seem to remember that my non-turbo huffing and puffing 1?0 HP produces 1280-1290 and there is no book fuel flow for my setup, but I see 15.4 gph.  I will check again but there is only so much I can do without lizard eyes and another hand.
 
<<<<<<At 50dF   LOP in high power cruise,  the EGTs will be about 1450F.>>>>>>
 
As you can see from the prior data, at 50dF LOP I am running 1350 to 1360 as measured about 4 inches from the cylinder head. 
 
<<<<<IF .... IF ...  I advance the timing about 4degrees,  and keep
everything else the same,  I will DROP those EGT temps by somewhere
between 60 to 90d  F. 
>>>>>>
 
Unison won't tell me what the timing is set at.  Remember that now I am using the CU that is the most conservative in spark advance even though I start out about 2* advanced.
 
<<<<<If I am at takeoff power,  that will be a VERY bad thing. ......... >>>>>>>>>
 
There is no advance at takeoff power i.e. above 26" MAP.  I am sure high altitude takeoffs are done at less than sea level power.
 
<<<<<If I am at 225 Hp,  LOP in cruise,  it *might* be just fine,  although
the CHTs will rise considerably (about 25F or so).>>>>>>
 
Yes, I do see about a 20*F rise in climb.  I will report the difference in cruise although cooling efficiency is a factor - I have attempted to control cooling air so that it is best at high power cruise with the least drag.  I don't care about other regimes since I can choose to climb out at a very rich mixture and high speed.  Hmmm, with the rise in gas costs I may have to reconsider.
 
<<<<<In this instance,  the change in EGTs - - would not be "relative" at
all,  it would be meaningful to know what the absolute value of the EGTs
was before invoking  LASAR and afterwords.>>>>>>
 
T'will be done.
 
<<<<<So...Scott,  can you get us a more robust description?>>>>>
 
I have done so regularly before.  I will see what I can get within the constraints of my ability, equipment and the safety of those in the air and on the ground. Whew! 
 
Scott Krueger
 
PS: A recent conversation with the ex-Unison tech rep indicated that there are some engines that just don't seem to respond to spark advance as expected and that Klaus' Lightspeed EI has seen some rare cases also.  I have no idea what that means other than, to me, the equipment is not operating per its' specs. 

 
 


 
  
 
 
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