Return-Path: Sender: (Marvin Kaye) To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:22:05 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.2] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 3123159 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:05:51 -0500 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id q.8c.6c4035d (4418) for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:05:49 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <8c.6c4035d.2d9592bc@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:05:48 EST Subject: Re: [LML] Re: New 360 Project X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="part1_8c.6c4035d.2d9592bc_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 810 --part1_8c.6c4035d.2d9592bc_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="8c.6c4035d_alt_bound" --8c.6c4035d_alt_bound Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shane, You have heard from many fliers about some really good ideas and their executions. Maybe now is the time to come at your project from a different angle. I have to assume that you are building the airplane for yourself and if so, you must think about its' mission. You must determine whether you want to show it, race it, use it for frequent long cross country trips, fly aerobatics in it, use it for day VFR or full IFR, mess around on Sundays or some combination. This, along with a budget, should guide you for making some major choices such as how much fuel, what kind of lighting, instruments, etc. One of the best uses of this board is for you to propose a system and let the experienced fliers here chew on it a bit. Of course, this requires that you are made of flame retardant stuff. Always remember that the opinions offered here are free even though some may be preceded with "My 2 cents worth is......" and as such they are priceless. Criticisms are made of the same stew and you must remain above it all while sustaining yourself with humor and an occasional gin-based adult beverage. Some budgetary considerations are related to how much "building" you are going to do - it is popular these days to utilize "fast build" options which save hundreds of hours of sanding, to have someone else build the plug'n'play panel, to contract the firewall forward details, to use professionals for interior and exterior finishing, etc. Some people rely on their own business and connections (CNC machines, Boeing warehouse, NASA scrap pile, etc.), along with unlimited budgets, to produce highly refined results. Some of us just utilized our garage, Craftsman tools and hand sanding boards before LML provided worldwide contacts and assistance. After all, 1989-1996 was a long time ago - in the prior century even! Now for some free opinions: 1. If you are going to race, consider that MT props limit the time you can spend at takeoff power. 2. Never eliminate weight up front. See wing discussion below. 3. Always consider that individual components are part of a system and that some change to a component will affect the whole system. An example is: A girth challenged individual found he could not get the stick back to full up elevator, so he experimented with and determined that the 4 inch elevator bellcrank arm could be reduced by 1 inch. This was a good thing (almost everyone has done this mod) because it shortened the stick throw by 25% and increased forces required to move the elevator, thus making it more balanced with the roll forces (relatively speaking). BUT, the increased force required that the trim spring forces be increased and many installed a "stiffer" trim spring only to find that the friction controlled cruciform trim element had to be tightened considerably to hold the forces. This resulted in such pilots developing "Popeye" right forearms with strength adequate to move the trim. Many then obtained the Dick Reichel walnut geared trim wheel to handle these forces and finaly, the elevator control system, benefitting from the shortened bellcrank arm, was complete. 4. Take fuel systems, please....... The 235/320/360 Wing Take time to study our very unique laminar flow reflexed flap wing system. It is an important component in the aircraft system and its' flight charactistics. However, most "experts" do not understand how it works. One has to fly with it to understand the implications of its' design. The original published CG range is quite suspect and may have been established for the wing at no flap reflex. The strong pitching moment, nose down as the flaps are moved from -7* to +45*, may be related to this. Confirmation was the Lancair implementation of the long engine mount that moved the engine 3 inches forward and the forward CG 1.5 inches forward. There was no adverse effect. Even if the long engine mount is not utilized, consider locating permanent heavy objects (Hartzell prop, Harmonic Damper, battery, hydraulic pump, Snap-on chromed tool chest, fuel, ankle weights, etc.) in places to keep the CG more forward. Pilots that cruise (-7* or more reflex) with a rearward CG would probably note the dereased pitch stability (Larry note, CG approaching the "neutral point"). It is important to note that the laminar flow takes place on the upper forward 1/3 and the lower forward 2/3 portion of the wing. Thus, take care with the finish of these areas. Another important area is the fit at the corner formed by the upper wing trailing edge and the reflexed flap skin - crucial to drag reduction. The thick wing laminar flow design (especially the flap reflex) purpose was to reduce drag and allow for leading edge contamination to only increase drag but not reduce lift. This was confirmed in the 2003 Cup race when the descent to ARR caused an accretion of billions and billions of bugs resulting in the loss of 6 or 7 Knots. I am sure Lance chose this fat high-performance wing so that the grocery-cart wheels could be tucked away nicely. Note that the IV-P folks are forced to stuff the wheels in the baggage compartment so their laminar flow wings can be thin. I think that wing does lose lift with contamination. Anyway, proceed with the project knowing that every flight will leave you with a smile that non-Lancair people eventually understand as they stand by with envy. Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk MotorMouth, Charlatan, Bon Vivant, Escapee, Etcetera... --8c.6c4035d_alt_bound Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Shane,
 
You have heard from many fliers about some really good ideas and their=20 executions.  Maybe now is the time to come at your project from a diffe= rent=20 angle. I have to assume that you are building the airplane for yourself and=20= if=20 so, you must think about its' mission.  You must determine whether you=20= want=20 to show it, race it, use it for frequent long cross country trips, fly=20 aerobatics in it, use it for day VFR or full IFR, mess around on Sunday= s or=20 some combination.   This, along with a budget, should guide y= ou=20 for making some major choices such as how much fuel, what kind of lighting,=20 instruments, etc.
 
One of the best uses of this board is for you to propose a system and l= et=20 the experienced fliers here chew on it a bit.  Of course, this requires= =20 that you are made of flame retardant stuff.  Always remember that=20= the=20 opinions offered here are free even though some may be preceded=20 with "My 2 cents worth is......" and as such they are=20 priceless.  Criticisms are made of the same stew and you must rema= in=20 above it all while sustaining yourself with humor and an occasional gin-base= d=20 adult beverage.
 
Some budgetary considerations are related to how much "building" you ar= e=20 going to do - it is popular these days to utilize "fast build" options which= =20 save hundreds of hours of sanding, to have someone else build the plug'n'pla= y=20 panel, to contract the firewall forward details, to use professionals for=20 interior and exterior finishing, etc.  Some people rely on their own=20 business and connections (CNC machines, Boeing warehouse, NASA scrap pile,=20 etc.), along with unlimited budgets, to produce highly refined results.
 
Some of us just utilized our garage, Craftsman tools and hand sand= ing=20 boards before LML provided worldwide contacts and assistance.  After al= l,=20 1989-1996 was a long time ago - in the prior century even!
 
Now for some free opinions:
 
1. If you are going to race, consider that MT props limit the time you=20= can=20 spend at takeoff power.
 
2. Never eliminate weight up front.  See wing discussion below.
 
3. Always consider that individual components are part of a system and=20= that=20 some change to a component will affect the whole system.  An example=20 is:  A girth challenged individual found he could not get the stick=20 back to full up elevator, so he experimented with and determined that t= he 4=20 inch elevator bellcrank arm could be reduced by 1 inch.  This was a goo= d=20 thing (almost everyone has done this mod) because it shortened the stick thr= ow=20 by 25% and increased forces required to move the elevator, thus making it mo= re=20 balanced with the roll forces (relatively speaking).  BUT, the increase= d=20 force required that the trim spring forces be increased and many installed=20 a "stiffer" trim spring only to find that the friction controlled cruci= form=20 trim element had to be tightened considerably to hold the forces. = =20 This resulted in such pilots developing "Popeye" right forearms wi= th=20 strength adequate to move the trim.  Many then obtained the Dick Reiche= l=20 walnut geared trim wheel to handle these forces and finally, the elevator=20 control system, benefitting from the shortened bellcrank arm, was=20 complete. 
 
4.  Take fuel systems, please....... 
 
The 235/320/360 Wing
 
Take time to study our very unique laminar flow reflexed flap wing=20 system.  It is an important component in the aircraft system and i= ts'=20 flight charactistics.  However, most "experts" do not understand how it= =20 works.  One has to fly with it to understand the implications of its'=20 design.  The original published CG range is quite suspect and may have=20= been=20 established for the wing at no flap reflex.  The strong pitching moment= ,=20 nose down as the flaps are moved from -7* to +45*, may be related to this.&n= bsp;=20 Confirmation was the Lancair implementation of the long engine mount th= at=20 moved the engine 3 inches forward and the forward CG 1.5 inches forward.&nbs= p;=20 There was no adverse effect.  Even if the long engine mount is not= =20 utilized, consider locating permanent heavy objects (Hartzell= =20 prop, Harmonic Damper, battery, hydraulic pump, Snap-on chromed tool ch= est,=20 fuel, ankle weights, etc.) in places to keep the CG more forward.  Pilo= ts=20 that cruise (-7* or more reflex) with a rearward CG would probably note= the=20 decreased pitch stability (Larry note, CG approaching the "neutral=20 point"). 
 
It is important to note that the laminar flow takes place on the upper=20 forward 1/3 and the lower forward 2/3 portion of the wing.  Thus, take=20= care=20 with the finish of these areas.  Another important area is the fit at t= he=20 corner formed by the upper wing trailing edge and the reflexed flap ski= n -=20 crucial to drag reduction.  The thick wing laminar flow design (especia= lly=20 the flap reflex) purpose was to reduce drag and allow for leading=20= edge=20 contamination to only increase drag but not reduce lift.  This was=20 confirmed in the 2003 Cup race when the descent to ARR caused an accretion o= f=20 billions and billions of bugs resulting in the loss of  6 or 7 Knots.&n= bsp;=20 I am sure Lance chose this fat high-performance wing so that the=20 grocery-cart wheels could be tucked away nicely.  Note that the IV-P fo= lks=20 are forced to stuff the wheels in the baggage compartment so their laminar f= low=20 wings can be thin. I think that wing does lose lift with=20 contamination.
 
Anyway, proceed with the project knowing that every flight will leave y= ou=20 with a smile that non-Lancair people eventually understand as they stand by=20= with=20 envy.=20
 
Scott Krueger=20 AKA Grayhawk
MotorMouth, Charlatan, Bon Vivant, Escapee, Etcetera...
<= IMG SRC=3D"cid:X.MA1.1080309948@aol.com" height=3D98 width=3D98 border= =3D0 DATASIZE=3D"3353" ID=3D"MA1.1080309948" >
 
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