Return-Path: Received: from mail.tsisp.com ([65.23.108.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b4) with ESMTP-TLS id 121471 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:25:52 -0400 Received: from stevehome by mail.tsisp.com (Technical Support Inc.) with SMTP id CQA74584 for ; Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:25:21 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Steve Brooks" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:28:24 -0400 Message-ID: <012301c44901$af2ea080$6400a8c0@WORKGROUP.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0124_01C448E0.281D0080" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C448E0.281D0080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MessageEd, I wish I knew the answers to your questions. I think that I want to run at about 5800 RPMS, and I only want to run about 7-8 lbs of boost. I really don't want to stress the engine too much, or consume lots of fuel doing it. I've seen several SS manifolds on E-bay for about $200. They even have them for the stock turbo, which may save some weight. The one for the T4 turbo has an external waste gate flange. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 6:30 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics I think the cast iron manifold the 88-91 series are pretty good, but they don't match up with a T4 turbo. The stainless steel ones tend to be a bit $$ for my blood, but then I'm cheap {:>). Yes, their are a number of good turbos that could replace the Stock ones with better results with a different manifold. You can pretty much figure out which compressor wheel would suit your needs simply by looking at your airflow and matching it with wheel that gave you the boost you want with the airflow you need. However, the challenge is in getting the correct turbine housing, one with the correct A/r ratio. I suspect you need one that has an A/r closer to 1 than 0.6, but there are no formulas that I am aware of that will tell you which one is best. Its often done by custom turbo places by simply trying on different sizes until you get the response you want. Needless to say even at only $250 or so a turbine housing that can get expensive real quick. You want to calculate your normal engine airflow (normally the charts use either lbs of air or CFM, but most now use lbs of air) and then you go looking at the compressor maps with that value at your target boost (for the rpm that gave you that airflow) and see if the intersection of your desired boost (as a ratio) on the vertical axis and your airflow (lbs or CFM) on the horizontal axis. You would like to lines drawn from each point meet in the middle (best efficiency) part of the chart. But, you need to be careful, because if you are too close to the left line (often marked "Surge line") at sea level, the changing pressure ratio as you go up in altitude (for the same boost) can push your operating point over into the Surge zone - which is not a good place to be. Let me know your target rpm and boost level and I can quickly give you your flow in lbs/minute which most of the compressor charts use. Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Brooks To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 3:03 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Ed, I see allot of Stainless Steel turbo manifolds available to convert a 13B to a T4 turbo. Would this be a good option ? Steve Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:04 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Thanks for the info, Grant I had exchanged an e mail with Max asking whether or not a core could be acquired in AU rather than me shipping one. I assumed the cost of shipping (US) vs cost a core (AU) might be compensated for by elimination of one way shipping cost. Max stated he would check, but never heard back from him. But, I do think that their mods are crucial for reliable long term turbo use at the higher rpms we turn. I think folks are running into some challenges because the Mazda Stock turbo was designed (split scroll, small A/r turbine housing, etc) for that low - mid rpm "sports car" boost and not for power at sustained High rpms. The modifications they offer is what is needed in my opinion. Welcome to the list Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: Schemmel, Grant To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:31 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Hi All, Been lurking on the list now for a couple of weeks, actually got in just when the discussion about turbo mods was hot. Since I'm planning on using a '90-ish 13B turbo on my BD-4 project (actually have the engine already), I wrote these guys about doing the upgrade. Essentially his quoted cost for modifying the stock turbo was $630AU. I'll attach his response to this message. Sounds like a pretty good deal, especially when the exchange from AU to US is about 1.4:1. Grant Schemmel Penrose, CO Hi, A V2 compressor wheel profile machined into the original comp cover will give you aprox 300 - 350 RWHP at 1 bar of boost given fuel is aprox. 11.5 AFR under load, exhaust 3", etc match. The wheel is heavily back-cut. (see pix on website) I use 2 springs on the backplate to strengthen the thrust. On a bench drill I just drill a large enough hole to still leave a seat for the flapper to sit on, I also keep drilling untill I drill through the scroll in the centre of the housing. Using a porting tool I further enlarge the hole until its as large as possible but still retains a smallish seat. A larger flapper "disc" can be welded on but I've found its not necessary in most cases as the above seems to fix the problem. There are other options for more power but the above will adequately fill your requirements very economically. If you find there is too much torque for your buggy you could try a Series 5 turbine housing which will transfer the power into the higher rev range but most people seem to love the torque. The Series 5 housing has 2 flapper holes (Hitachi realised they had a problem) & the mods are therefore not necessary to the flapper hole, but the housing is more offset & consequently your engine pipe etc will move to the side a bit. You need to lay the 2 housings side by side to see what I mean or if you can't email me back & I'll take a pix for you. I would stick to the Sreies 4 & consider trying the Series 5 later if necessary. I charge $630 (+ 10% GST AU only) for the above including reconditioning the turbocharger but freight is obviously an issue from here as they are quite heavy. Hopefully someone nearby can help you at a reasonable cost. I sometimes also get the comp cover "power ported" or called "extrude honed" in the States rather than change covers & backplates which helps further increase air flow & helps reduce inlet temperatures. Not so expensive here compared to the States I think, aprox. $180. You should also drill & tap a 1/8 Gas (NPT) thread hole into either the turbine housing housing or exhaust manifold & test exhaustt manifold pressure which should roughly = boost pressure. You can put a 1/8 steel plug back in the hold after finished testing. If you find exhaust manifold pressure is too high (email me with results if you like) you can machine a bit of housing away around the turbine outlet blades, try about a millimetre to gauge the differance. Pressure drop across the intercooler shouldn't be more than 2 psi, a simple test & a permanent pyrometer is a good idea with the probe mounted about 2" behind the turbo in the engine pipe as rotaries can tend to run too hot. I don't like to see much more than 850c for reliability although many race at 950c. The pyrometer can also be used to help you tune the engine as we used to use pyro's for this years ago before Air Fuel Ratio Metres (AFR's) were invented. Finally you'll notice on the website pix I machine the exhaust housing outlet in a funnel shape (all above work done on a lathe except drilling flapper hole), to further help exit exhaust gas, the angle I use is 7 degrees which will still leave enough room for the dump pipe to seal although you may have to modify the gasket & dump pipe should you find there diameters are small than the turbine outlet diameter after modifying. Hope this helps & if you have any further questions please fell free to ask. Regards Max Heywood ATS/Turbonetics 20a Assembly Drive, Tullamarine, Vic., Australia, 3043. Phone- 613 93351254 Fax- 613 93351264 www.turbonetics.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schemmel, Grant" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 3:30 AM Subject: 13B turbo modification > Dear Sirs: > > I was referred to your website from a rotary newsgroup. I have a '90 13b turbo engine which I plan to install in an off-road vehicle, that will see sustained 5000 - 8000 rpm use, low rpm operation will not be a factor. I'm hoping to set up the engine up to run at around 220 - 250 HP. I understand from the newsgroup that the stock factory turbo will have a tendency to over boost or creep. I also see from your website that you offer turbo modifications to take care of this. > > So, could you give me an idea as to the pricing of your services on an existing turbo? > > Thanks! > > Grant Schemmel > Penrose, CO USA > -----Original Message----- From: Haywire [mailto:haywire@telus.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 7:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics I'm pricing a rebuilt turbo with modifications as described in http://www.turbonetics.com.au/ATS_p&s_12a_13b.htm Let us know what you find out about them and what they can do for you? And $$$? I'm interested too, just been too darn busy to contact them myself. S. Todd Bartrim Turbo 13B RV-9Endurance C-FSTB http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently desire, Sincerely believe in, Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably come to pass". ------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C448E0.281D0080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Ed,
I wish=20 I knew the answers to your questions.  I think that I want to run = at about=20 5800 RPMS, and I only want to run about 7-8 lbs of boost.  I really = don't=20 want to stress the engine too much, or consume lots of fuel doing=20 it.
 
I've=20 seen several SS manifolds on E-bay for about $200.  They even have = them for=20 the stock turbo, which may save some weight.  The one for the T4 = turbo has=20 an external waste gate flange.
 
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 6:30 = PM
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss=20 diagnostics

I think the cast iron manifold the = 88-91 series=20 are pretty good, but they don't match up with a T4 turbo.  The = stainless=20 steel ones tend to be a bit $$ for my blood, but then I'm cheap = {:>). =20 Yes, their are a number of good turbos that could replace the Stock = ones with=20 better results with a different manifold.  You can pretty much = figure out=20 which compressor wheel would suit your needs simply by looking at your = airflow=20 and matching it with wheel that gave you the boost you want with the = airflow=20 you need.
 
However, the challenge is in getting = the correct=20 turbine housing, one with the correct A/r ratio.  I suspect you = need one=20 that has an A/r closer to 1 than 0.6, but there are no formulas that I = am=20 aware of that will tell you which one is best.  Its often done by = custom=20 turbo places by simply trying on different sizes until you get the = response=20 you want.  Needless to say even at only $250 or so a turbine = housing that=20 can get expensive real quick.
 
You want to calculate your normal = engine airflow=20 (normally the charts use either lbs of air or CFM, but most now use = lbs of=20 air) and then you go looking at the compressor maps with that value at = your=20 target boost (for the rpm that gave you that airflow) and see if the=20 intersection of your desired boost (as a ratio) on the vertical axis = and your=20 airflow (lbs or CFM) on the horizontal axis.  You would like to = lines=20 drawn from each point meet in the middle (best efficiency) part of the = chart.  But, you need to be careful, because if you are too close = to the=20 left line (often marked "Surge line") at sea level, the changing = pressure=20 ratio as you go up in altitude (for the same boost) can push your = operating=20 point over into the Surge zone - which is not a good place to = be.
 
Let me know your target rpm and boost = level and I=20 can quickly give you your flow in lbs/minute which most of the = compressor=20 charts use.
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Steve = Brooks=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, = 2004 3:03=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Power loss=20 diagnostics

Ed,
I=20 see allot of Stainless Steel turbo manifolds available to = convert a 13B=20 to a T4 turbo.  Would this be a good option = ?
 
Steve Brooks
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of = Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:04 = AM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power = loss=20 diagnostics

Thanks for the info, = Grant
 
I had exchanged an e mail with = Max asking=20 whether or not a core could be acquired in AU rather than me = shipping=20 one.  I assumed the cost of shipping (US) vs cost a core (AU) = might=20 be compensated for by elimination of one way shipping = cost.  Max=20 stated he would check, but never heard back from him.  But, I = do=20 think that their mods are crucial for reliable long term turbo use = at the=20 higher rpms we turn.  I think folks are running into some = challenges=20 because the Mazda Stock turbo was designed (split scroll, small = A/r=20 turbine housing, etc) for that low - mid rpm "sports car" boost = and not=20 for power at sustained High rpms.  The modifications they = offer is=20 what is needed in my opinion.
 
Welcome to the list
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, = NC
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Schemmel, Grant =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, = 2004 9:31=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Power loss=20 diagnostics

Hi All,
 
Been lurking on the list now for a couple of weeks, = actually got=20 in just when the discussion about turbo mods was hot.  = Since I'm=20 planning on using a '90-ish 13B turbo on my BD-4 project = (actually have=20 the engine already), I wrote these guys about doing the = upgrade. =20 Essentially his quoted cost for modifying the stock turbo was=20 $630AU.  I'll attach his response to this message.  = Sounds=20 like a pretty good deal, especially when the exchange from AU to = US is=20 about 1.4:1.
 
Grant Schemmel
Penrose, CO
 

Hi,

A V2 = compressor=20 wheel profile machined into the original comp cover will give you aprox 300 - 350 RWHP = at 1 bar=20 of boost given fuel is aprox. 11.5=20 AFR under load, exhaust 3", etc match. The wheel is = heavily=20 back-cut. (see pix on = website) I=20 use 2 springs on the backplate to strengthen the thrust.  On a bench drill I just = drill a=20 large enough hole to still leave a seat for the flapper to sit on, I also = keep=20 drilling untill I drill through the=20 scroll in the centre of the housing. Using a porting tool = I=20 further enlarge the hole = until its=20 as large as possible but still retains a smallish seat. A larger flapper "disc" can be = welded on=20 but I've found its not necessary in=20 most cases as the above seems to fix the problem. There = are other=20 options for more power = but the=20 above will adequately fill your requirements very economically. If you find = there is too=20 much torque for your buggy you could=20 try a Series 5 turbine housing which will transfer the = power into=20 the higher rev range but = most=20 people seem to love the torque. The Series 5 housing has 2 flapper holes (Hitachi = realised they=20 had a problem) & the mods are=20 therefore not necessary to the flapper hole, but the = housing is=20 more offset & = consequently=20 your engine pipe etc will move to the side a bit. You need = to lay the 2 housings side by = side to see=20 what I mean or if you can't email me=20 back & I'll take a pix for you. I would stick to the = Sreies 4=20 & consider=20 trying=20 the Series 5 later if necessary.

I = charge $630 (+=20 10% GST AU only) for the above including reconditioning the turbocharger but freight is = obviously=20 an issue from here as they are quite=20 heavy. Hopefully someone nearby can help you at a = reasonable=20 cost. I sometimes also = get the=20 comp cover "power ported" or called "extrude honed" in the States rather than = change covers=20 & backplates which helps further=20 increase air flow & helps reduce inlet temperatures. = Not so=20 expensive here compared = to the=20 States I think, = aprox.=20 $180.  You should = also drill=20 & tap a 1/8 Gas (NPT) thread hole into either the turbine housing housing or = exhaust=20 manifold & test exhaustt manifold=20 pressure which should roughly =3D boost pressure. You can = put a 1/8=20 steel plug back in the = hold after=20 finished testing. If you find exhaust manifold pressure is too high (email = me with=20 results if you like) you can machine a=20 bit of housing away around the turbine outlet blades, try = about a=20 millimetre to gauge the=20 differance. Pressure drop across the intercooler shouldn't = be more than 2 psi, a simple = test & a=20 permanent pyrometer is a good idea with=20 the probe mounted about 2" behind the turbo in the engine = pipe as=20 rotaries can tend to run = too hot.=20 I don't like to see much more than 850c for reliability although many = race at 950c.=20 The pyrometer can also be used to=20 help you tune the engine as we used to use pyro's for = this years=20 ago before Air Fuel = Ratio Metres=20 (AFR's) were invented. =20 Finally you'll notice on the website pix I machine the = exhaust=20 housing outlet in a = funnel shape=20 (all above work done on a lathe except drilling flapper hole), to further = help exit=20 exhaust gas, the angle I use is 7=20 degrees which will still leave enough room for the dump = pipe to=20 seal although you may = have to=20 modify the gasket & dump pipe should you find there diameters are small than the turbine = outlet=20 diameter after modifying.

Hope this helps = & if you=20 have any further questions please fell free to ask.

Regards

Max = Heywood = ATS/Turbonetics

20a Assembly = Drive,

Tullamarine, = Vic.,

Australia, = 3043.

Phone- 613 = 93351254

Fax- 613 = 93351264

www.turbonetics.com.au

 

 

----- Original = Message=20 -----

From: "Schemmel, = Grant"=20 <Grant.Schemmel@Aeroflex.com>

To:=20 <sales@turbonetics.com.au>

Sent: Wednesday, = May 19, 2004=20 3:30 AM

Subject: 13B = turbo=20 modification

 

> Dear = Sirs:

>

> I was = referred to your=20 website from a rotary newsgroup. I have a '90 13b

turbo engine = which I plan to=20 install in an off-road vehicle, that will see

sustained 5000 - = 8000 rpm use,=20 low rpm operation will not be a factor. I'm

hoping to set up = the engine up=20 to run at around 220 - 250 HP. I understand

from the = newsgroup that the=20 stock factory turbo will have a tendency to over

boost or creep. I = also see from=20 your website that you offer turbo

modifications to = take care of=20 this.

>

> So, could = you give me an=20 idea as to the pricing of your services on an

existing = turbo?

>

> = Thanks!

>

> Grant = Schemmel

> Penrose, CO = USA

>

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Haywire=20 [mailto:haywire@telus.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, = 2004 7:22=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics

I'm pricing a rebuilt turbo with modifications = as=20 described in http://www= .turbonetics.com.au/ATS_p&s_12a_13b.htm=20 =
 
Let us know what you find out about them and what = they can do=20 for you? And $$$? I'm interested too, just been too darn busy = to=20 contact them myself.

S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B=20 RV-9Endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm

=    "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently = desire,=20 Sincerely believe in, Enthusiastically act upon, Must = inevitably come=20 to pass".  

=
------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C448E0.281D0080--