Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b4) with ESMTP id 121364 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:30:17 -0400 Received: from EDWARD (clt25-78-058.carolina.rr.com [24.25.78.58]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i52MTiVw028939 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001201c448f1$1b181da0$2402a8c0@EDWARD> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:29:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C448CF.93CD4530" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C448CF.93CD4530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageI think the cast iron manifold the 88-91 series are pretty good, = but they don't match up with a T4 turbo. The stainless steel ones tend = to be a bit $$ for my blood, but then I'm cheap {:>). Yes, their are a = number of good turbos that could replace the Stock ones with better = results with a different manifold. You can pretty much figure out which = compressor wheel would suit your needs simply by looking at your airflow = and matching it with wheel that gave you the boost you want with the = airflow you need. However, the challenge is in getting the correct turbine housing, one = with the correct A/r ratio. I suspect you need one that has an A/r = closer to 1 than 0.6, but there are no formulas that I am aware of that = will tell you which one is best. Its often done by custom turbo places = by simply trying on different sizes until you get the response you want. = Needless to say even at only $250 or so a turbine housing that can get = expensive real quick. You want to calculate your normal engine airflow (normally the charts = use either lbs of air or CFM, but most now use lbs of air) and then you = go looking at the compressor maps with that value at your target boost = (for the rpm that gave you that airflow) and see if the intersection of = your desired boost (as a ratio) on the vertical axis and your airflow = (lbs or CFM) on the horizontal axis. You would like to lines drawn from = each point meet in the middle (best efficiency) part of the chart. But, = you need to be careful, because if you are too close to the left line = (often marked "Surge line") at sea level, the changing pressure ratio as = you go up in altitude (for the same boost) can push your operating point = over into the Surge zone - which is not a good place to be. Let me know your target rpm and boost level and I can quickly give you = your flow in lbs/minute which most of the compressor charts use. Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steve Brooks=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 3:03 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Ed, I see allot of Stainless Steel turbo manifolds available to convert a = 13B to a T4 turbo. Would this be a good option ? Steve Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:04 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Thanks for the info, Grant I had exchanged an e mail with Max asking whether or not a core = could be acquired in AU rather than me shipping one. I assumed the cost = of shipping (US) vs cost a core (AU) might be compensated for by = elimination of one way shipping cost. Max stated he would check, but = never heard back from him. But, I do think that their mods are crucial = for reliable long term turbo use at the higher rpms we turn. I think = folks are running into some challenges because the Mazda Stock turbo was = designed (split scroll, small A/r turbine housing, etc) for that low - = mid rpm "sports car" boost and not for power at sustained High rpms. = The modifications they offer is what is needed in my opinion. Welcome to the list Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Schemmel, Grant=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:31 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Hi All, Been lurking on the list now for a couple of weeks, actually got = in just when the discussion about turbo mods was hot. Since I'm = planning on using a '90-ish 13B turbo on my BD-4 project (actually have = the engine already), I wrote these guys about doing the upgrade. = Essentially his quoted cost for modifying the stock turbo was $630AU. = I'll attach his response to this message. Sounds like a pretty good = deal, especially when the exchange from AU to US is about 1.4:1. Grant Schemmel Penrose, CO Hi, A V2 compressor wheel profile machined into the original comp = cover will give you aprox 300 - 350 RWHP at 1 bar of boost given fuel is = aprox. 11.5 AFR under load, exhaust 3", etc match. The wheel is heavily = back-cut. (see pix on website) I use 2 springs on the backplate to = strengthen the thrust. On a bench drill I just drill a large enough = hole to still leave a seat for the flapper to sit on, I also keep = drilling untill I drill through the scroll in the centre of the housing. = Using a porting tool I further enlarge the hole until its as large as = possible but still retains a smallish seat. A larger flapper "disc" can = be welded on but I've found its not necessary in most cases as the above = seems to fix the problem. There are other options for more power but the = above will adequately fill your requirements very economically. If you = find there is too much torque for your buggy you could try a Series 5 = turbine housing which will transfer the power into the higher rev range = but most people seem to love the torque. The Series 5 housing has 2 = flapper holes (Hitachi realised they had a problem) & the mods are = therefore not necessary to the flapper hole, but the housing is more = offset & consequently your engine pipe etc will move to the side a bit. = You need to lay the 2 housings side by side to see what I mean or if you = can't email me back & I'll take a pix for you. I would stick to the = Sreies 4 & consider trying the Series 5 later if necessary. I charge $630 (+ 10% GST AU only) for the above including = reconditioning the turbocharger but freight is obviously an issue from = here as they are quite heavy. Hopefully someone nearby can help you at a = reasonable cost. I sometimes also get the comp cover "power ported" or = called "extrude honed" in the States rather than change covers & = backplates which helps further increase air flow & helps reduce inlet = temperatures. Not so expensive here compared to the States I think, = aprox. $180. You should also drill & tap a 1/8 Gas (NPT) thread hole = into either the turbine housing housing or exhaust manifold & test = exhaustt manifold pressure which should roughly =3D boost pressure. You = can put a 1/8 steel plug back in the hold after finished testing. If you = find exhaust manifold pressure is too high (email me with results if you = like) you can machine a bit of housing away around the turbine outlet = blades, try about a millimetre to gauge the differance. Pressure drop = across the intercooler shouldn't be more than 2 psi, a simple test & a = permanent pyrometer is a good idea with the probe mounted about 2" = behind the turbo in the engine pipe as rotaries can tend to run too hot. = I don't like to see much more than 850c for reliability although many = race at 950c. The pyrometer can also be used to help you tune the engine = as we used to use pyro's for this years ago before Air Fuel Ratio Metres = (AFR's) were invented. Finally you'll notice on the website pix I = machine the exhaust housing outlet in a funnel shape (all above work = done on a lathe except drilling flapper hole), to further help exit = exhaust gas, the angle I use is 7 degrees which will still leave enough = room for the dump pipe to seal although you may have to modify the = gasket & dump pipe should you find there diameters are small than the = turbine outlet diameter after modifying. Hope this helps & if you have any further questions please fell = free to ask. Regards Max Heywood ATS/Turbonetics 20a Assembly Drive, Tullamarine, Vic., Australia, 3043. Phone- 613 93351254 Fax- 613 93351264 www.turbonetics.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schemmel, Grant" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 3:30 AM Subject: 13B turbo modification > Dear Sirs: > > I was referred to your website from a rotary newsgroup. I have a = '90 13b turbo engine which I plan to install in an off-road vehicle, that = will see sustained 5000 - 8000 rpm use, low rpm operation will not be a = factor. I'm hoping to set up the engine up to run at around 220 - 250 HP. I = understand from the newsgroup that the stock factory turbo will have a = tendency to over boost or creep. I also see from your website that you offer turbo modifications to take care of this. > > So, could you give me an idea as to the pricing of your services = on an existing turbo? > > Thanks! > > Grant Schemmel > Penrose, CO USA > -----Original Message----- From: Haywire [mailto:haywire@telus.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 7:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics I'm pricing a rebuilt turbo with modifications as described in = http://www.turbonetics.com.au/ATS_p&s_12a_13b.htm=20 Let us know what you find out about them and what they can do = for you? And $$$? I'm interested too, just been too darn busy to contact = them myself. S. Todd Bartrim Turbo 13B RV-9Endurance C-FSTB http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently desire, Sincerely = believe in, Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably come to pass". =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C448CF.93CD4530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
I think the cast iron manifold the = 88-91 series are=20 pretty good, but they don't match up with a T4 turbo.  The = stainless steel=20 ones tend to be a bit $$ for my blood, but then I'm cheap {:>).  = Yes,=20 their are a number of good turbos that could replace the Stock ones with = better=20 results with a different manifold.  You can pretty much figure out = which=20 compressor wheel would suit your needs simply by looking at your airflow = and=20 matching it with wheel that gave you the boost you want with the airflow = you=20 need.
 
However, the challenge is in getting = the correct=20 turbine housing, one with the correct A/r ratio.  I suspect you = need one=20 that has an A/r closer to 1 than 0.6, but there are no formulas that I = am aware=20 of that will tell you which one is best.  Its often done by custom = turbo=20 places by simply trying on different sizes until you get the response = you=20 want.  Needless to say even at only $250 or so a turbine housing = that can=20 get expensive real quick.
 
You want to calculate your normal = engine airflow=20 (normally the charts use either lbs of air or CFM, but most now use lbs = of air)=20 and then you go looking at the compressor maps with that value at your = target=20 boost (for the rpm that gave you that airflow) and see if the = intersection of=20 your desired boost (as a ratio) on the vertical axis and your airflow = (lbs or=20 CFM) on the horizontal axis.  You would like to lines drawn from = each point=20 meet in the middle (best efficiency) part of the chart.  But, you = need to=20 be careful, because if you are too close to the left line (often marked = "Surge=20 line") at sea level, the changing pressure ratio as you go up in = altitude (for=20 the same boost) can push your operating point over into the Surge zone - = which=20 is not a good place to be.
 
Let me know your target rpm and boost = level and I=20 can quickly give you your flow in lbs/minute which most of the = compressor charts=20 use.
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Steve = Brooks
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 = 3:03=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power = loss=20 diagnostics

Ed,
I=20 see allot of Stainless Steel turbo manifolds available to convert = a 13B=20 to a T4 turbo.  Would this be a good option ?
 
Steve Brooks
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:04 = AM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power = loss=20 diagnostics

Thanks for the info, = Grant
 
I had exchanged an e mail with Max = asking=20 whether or not a core could be acquired in AU rather than me = shipping=20 one.  I assumed the cost of shipping (US) vs cost a core (AU) = might be=20 compensated for by elimination of one way shipping cost.  = Max=20 stated he would check, but never heard back from him.  But, I = do think=20 that their mods are crucial for reliable long term turbo use at the = higher=20 rpms we turn.  I think folks are running into some challenges = because=20 the Mazda Stock turbo was designed (split scroll, small A/r turbine = housing,=20 etc) for that low - mid rpm "sports car" boost and not for power at=20 sustained High rpms.  The modifications they offer is what is = needed in=20 my opinion.
 
Welcome to the list
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, = NC
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Schemmel, Grant =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, = 2004 9:31=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Power loss=20 diagnostics

Hi All,
 
Been lurking on the list now for a couple of weeks, = actually got in=20 just when the discussion about turbo mods was hot.  Since I'm = planning on using a '90-ish 13B turbo on my BD-4 project (actually = have=20 the engine already), I wrote these guys about doing the = upgrade. =20 Essentially his quoted cost for modifying the stock turbo was=20 $630AU.  I'll attach his response to this message.  = Sounds like=20 a pretty good deal, especially when the exchange from AU to US is = about=20 1.4:1.
 
Grant Schemmel
Penrose, CO
 

Hi,

A V2 = compressor wheel=20 profile machined into the original comp cover will give you aprox 300 - 350 RWHP = at 1 bar of=20 boost given fuel is aprox. 11.5 = AFR=20 under load, exhaust 3", etc match. The wheel is heavily back-cut.=20 (see pix on website) I use = 2 springs=20 on the backplate to strengthen the thrust.  On a bench drill I just = drill a=20 large enough hole to still leave a seat for=20 the flapper to sit on, I also keep drilling untill I drill = through=20 the scroll in the centre = of the=20 housing. Using a porting tool I further enlarge the hole until its as large as = possible=20 but still retains a smallish seat. A=20 larger flapper "disc" can be welded on but I've found its = not=20 necessary in most cases as = the above=20 seems to fix the problem. There are other options for more power but the above = will=20 adequately fill your requirements very=20 economically. If you find there is too much torque for your = buggy=20 you could try a Series 5 = turbine=20 housing which will transfer the power into the higher rev range but most people seem = to love=20 the torque. The Series 5 housing has=20 2 flapper holes (Hitachi realised they had a problem) & = the=20 mods are therefore not = necessary to=20 the flapper hole, but the housing is more offset & consequently your engine = pipe etc=20 will move to the side a bit. You need to=20 lay the 2 housings side by side to see what I mean or if = you can't=20 email me back & I'll = take a pix=20 for you. I would stick to the Sreies 4 & consider trying the Series 5 later if = necessary.

I = charge $630 (+ 10%=20 GST AU only) for the above including reconditioning the turbocharger but freight is = obviously an=20 issue from here as they are quite = heavy. Hopefully someone nearby can help you at a = reasonable cost.=20 I sometimes also get the = comp cover=20 "power ported" or called "extrude honed"=20 in the States rather than change covers & backplates=20 which helps further = increase=20 air flow & helps reduce inlet temperatures. Not so expensive = here compared to the States = I think, aprox. $180.  You should also drill = & tap a=20 1/8 Gas (NPT) thread hole into either the=20 turbine housing housing or exhaust manifold & test = exhaustt=20 manifold pressure which = should=20 roughly =3D boost pressure. You can put a 1/8 steel plug back in the hold after finished = testing.=20 If you find exhaust manifold=20 pressure is too high (email me with results if you like) = you can=20 machine a bit of housing = away around=20 the turbine outlet blades, try about a millimetre to gauge the differance. = Pressure drop=20 across the intercooler shouldn't be=20 more than 2 psi, a simple test & a permanent pyrometer = is a=20 good idea with the probe = mounted=20 about 2" behind the turbo in the engine pipe as rotaries can tend to run too hot. I = don't like to=20 see much more than 850c for=20 reliability although many race at 950c. The pyrometer can = also be=20 used to help you tune the = engine as=20 we used to use pyro's for this years ago before Air Fuel Ratio Metres (AFR's) = were=20 invented.  Finally = you'll=20 notice on the website pix I machine the exhaust housing outlet in a funnel shape (all = above work=20 done on a lathe except drilling=20 flapper hole), to further help exit exhaust gas, the angle = I use is=20 7 degrees which will still = leave=20 enough room for the dump pipe to seal=20 although you may have to modify the gasket & dump pipe = should=20 you find there=20 diameters are small than the turbine outlet diameter = after=20 modifying.

Hope this helps = & if you have=20 any further questions please fell free to ask.

Regards

Max = Heywood = ATS/Turbonetics

20a Assembly = Drive,

Tullamarine, = Vic.,

Australia, = 3043.

Phone- 613 = 93351254

Fax- 613 = 93351264

www.turbonetics.com.au

 

 

----- Original = Message=20 -----

From: "Schemmel, = Grant"=20 <Grant.Schemmel@Aeroflex.com>

To:=20 <sales@turbonetics.com.au>

Sent: Wednesday, = May 19, 2004=20 3:30 AM

Subject: 13B turbo=20 modification

 

> Dear = Sirs:

>

> I was referred = to your=20 website from a rotary newsgroup. I have a '90 13b

turbo engine which = I plan to=20 install in an off-road vehicle, that will see

sustained 5000 - = 8000 rpm use,=20 low rpm operation will not be a factor. I'm

hoping to set up = the engine up to=20 run at around 220 - 250 HP. I understand

from the newsgroup = that the stock=20 factory turbo will have a tendency to over

boost or creep. I = also see from=20 your website that you offer turbo

modifications to = take care of=20 this.

>

> So, could you = give me an=20 idea as to the pricing of your services on an

existing = turbo?

>

> = Thanks!

>

> Grant = Schemmel

> Penrose, CO = USA

>

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Haywire=20 [mailto:haywire@telus.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, = 2004 7:22=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics

I'm pricing a=20 rebuilt turbo with modifications as described in http://www= .turbonetics.com.au/ATS_p&s_12a_13b.htm=20 =
 
Let us know what you find out about them and what they = can do for=20 you? And $$$? I'm interested too, just been too darn busy to = contact=20 them myself.

S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B=20 RV-9Endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm

=    "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently = desire,=20 Sincerely believe in, Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably = come to=20 pass".  

=
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