Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b4) with ESMTP id 120424 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:04:48 -0400 Received: from EDWARD (clt25-78-058.carolina.rr.com [24.25.78.58]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i52E3ifP014438 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000a01c448aa$6b1fc1a0$2402a8c0@EDWARD> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:03:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C44888.E3D9A420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C44888.E3D9A420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageThanks for the info, Grant I had exchanged an e mail with Max asking whether or not a core could be = acquired in AU rather than me shipping one. I assumed the cost of = shipping (US) vs cost a core (AU) might be compensated for by = elimination of one way shipping cost. Max stated he would check, but = never heard back from him. But, I do think that their mods are crucial = for reliable long term turbo use at the higher rpms we turn. I think = folks are running into some challenges because the Mazda Stock turbo was = designed (split scroll, small A/r turbine housing, etc) for that low - = mid rpm "sports car" boost and not for power at sustained High rpms. = The modifications they offer is what is needed in my opinion. Welcome to the list Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Schemmel, Grant=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:31 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics Hi All, Been lurking on the list now for a couple of weeks, actually got in = just when the discussion about turbo mods was hot. Since I'm planning = on using a '90-ish 13B turbo on my BD-4 project (actually have the = engine already), I wrote these guys about doing the upgrade. = Essentially his quoted cost for modifying the stock turbo was $630AU. = I'll attach his response to this message. Sounds like a pretty good = deal, especially when the exchange from AU to US is about 1.4:1. Grant Schemmel Penrose, CO Hi, A V2 compressor wheel profile machined into the original comp cover = will give you aprox 300 - 350 RWHP at 1 bar of boost given fuel is = aprox. 11.5 AFR under load, exhaust 3", etc match. The wheel is heavily = back-cut. (see pix on website) I use 2 springs on the backplate to = strengthen the thrust. On a bench drill I just drill a large enough = hole to still leave a seat for the flapper to sit on, I also keep = drilling untill I drill through the scroll in the centre of the housing. = Using a porting tool I further enlarge the hole until its as large as = possible but still retains a smallish seat. A larger flapper "disc" can = be welded on but I've found its not necessary in most cases as the above = seems to fix the problem. There are other options for more power but the = above will adequately fill your requirements very economically. If you = find there is too much torque for your buggy you could try a Series 5 = turbine housing which will transfer the power into the higher rev range = but most people seem to love the torque. The Series 5 housing has 2 = flapper holes (Hitachi realised they had a problem) & the mods are = therefore not necessary to the flapper hole, but the housing is more = offset & consequently your engine pipe etc will move to the side a bit. = You need to lay the 2 housings side by side to see what I mean or if you = can't email me back & I'll take a pix for you. I would stick to the = Sreies 4 & consider trying the Series 5 later if necessary. I charge $630 (+ 10% GST AU only) for the above including = reconditioning the turbocharger but freight is obviously an issue from = here as they are quite heavy. Hopefully someone nearby can help you at a = reasonable cost. I sometimes also get the comp cover "power ported" or = called "extrude honed" in the States rather than change covers & = backplates which helps further increase air flow & helps reduce inlet = temperatures. Not so expensive here compared to the States I think, = aprox. $180. You should also drill & tap a 1/8 Gas (NPT) thread hole = into either the turbine housing housing or exhaust manifold & test = exhaustt manifold pressure which should roughly =3D boost pressure. You = can put a 1/8 steel plug back in the hold after finished testing. If you = find exhaust manifold pressure is too high (email me with results if you = like) you can machine a bit of housing away around the turbine outlet = blades, try about a millimetre to gauge the differance. Pressure drop = across the intercooler shouldn't be more than 2 psi, a simple test & a = permanent pyrometer is a good idea with the probe mounted about 2" = behind the turbo in the engine pipe as rotaries can tend to run too hot. = I don't like to see much more than 850c for reliability although many = race at 950c. The pyrometer can also be used to help you tune the engine = as we used to use pyro's for this years ago before Air Fuel Ratio Metres = (AFR's) were invented. Finally you'll notice on the website pix I = machine the exhaust housing outlet in a funnel shape (all above work = done on a lathe except drilling flapper hole), to further help exit = exhaust gas, the angle I use is 7 degrees which will still leave enough = room for the dump pipe to seal although you may have to modify the = gasket & dump pipe should you find there diameters are small than the = turbine outlet diameter after modifying. Hope this helps & if you have any further questions please fell free = to ask. Regards Max Heywood ATS/Turbonetics 20a Assembly Drive, Tullamarine, Vic., Australia, 3043. Phone- 613 93351254 Fax- 613 93351264 www.turbonetics.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schemmel, Grant" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 3:30 AM Subject: 13B turbo modification > Dear Sirs: > > I was referred to your website from a rotary newsgroup. I have a '90 = 13b turbo engine which I plan to install in an off-road vehicle, that will = see sustained 5000 - 8000 rpm use, low rpm operation will not be a factor. = I'm hoping to set up the engine up to run at around 220 - 250 HP. I = understand from the newsgroup that the stock factory turbo will have a tendency = to over boost or creep. I also see from your website that you offer turbo modifications to take care of this. > > So, could you give me an idea as to the pricing of your services on = an existing turbo? > > Thanks! > > Grant Schemmel > Penrose, CO USA > -----Original Message----- From: Haywire [mailto:haywire@telus.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 7:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power loss diagnostics I'm pricing a rebuilt turbo with modifications as described in = http://www.turbonetics.com.au/ATS_p&s_12a_13b.htm=20 Let us know what you find out about them and what they can do for = you? And $$$? I'm interested too, just been too darn busy to contact = them myself. S. Todd Bartrim Turbo 13B RV-9Endurance C-FSTB http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently desire, Sincerely believe = in, Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably come to pass". =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C44888.E3D9A420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Thanks for the info, Grant
 
I had exchanged an e mail with Max = asking whether=20 or not a core could be acquired in AU rather than me shipping one.  = I=20 assumed the cost of shipping (US) vs cost a core (AU) might be = compensated for=20 by elimination of one way shipping cost.  Max stated he would = check,=20 but never heard back from him.  But, I do think that their mods are = crucial=20 for reliable long term turbo use at the higher rpms we turn.  I = think folks=20 are running into some challenges because the Mazda Stock turbo was = designed=20 (split scroll, small A/r turbine housing, etc) for that low - mid rpm = "sports=20 car" boost and not for power at sustained High rpms.  The = modifications=20 they offer is what is needed in my opinion.
 
Welcome to the list
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Schemmel, Grant
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 = 9:31=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Power = loss=20 diagnostics

Hi=20 All,
 
Been=20 lurking on the list now for a couple of weeks, actually got in just = when the=20 discussion about turbo mods was hot.  Since I'm planning on using = a=20 '90-ish 13B turbo on my BD-4 project (actually have the engine = already), I=20 wrote these guys about doing the upgrade.  Essentially his quoted = cost=20 for modifying the stock turbo was $630AU.  I'll attach his = response to=20 this message.  Sounds like a pretty good deal, especially when = the=20 exchange from AU to US is about 1.4:1.
 
Grant Schemmel
Penrose, CO
 

Hi,

A V2 = compressor wheel=20 profile machined into the original comp cover will give you aprox 300 - 350 RWHP at 1 = bar of=20 boost given fuel is aprox. 11.5 = AFR=20 under load, exhaust 3", etc match. The wheel is heavily back-cut. = (see pix on website) I use 2 springs on = the=20 backplate to strengthen the thrust. =20 On a bench drill I just drill a large enough hole to still = leave a seat=20 for the flapper to sit on, I = also keep=20 drilling untill I drill through the=20 scroll in the centre of the housing. Using a porting tool I = further=20 enlarge the hole until its as = large as=20 possible but still retains a smallish seat. A=20 larger flapper "disc" can be welded on but I've found its not = necessary=20 in most cases as the above = seems to fix=20 the problem. There are other options = for=20 more power but the above will adequately fill your requirements = very economically. If you find there is = too much=20 torque for your buggy you could = try a=20 Series 5 turbine housing which will transfer the power into the = higher rev range but most people seem to = love the=20 torque. The Series 5 housing has = 2=20 flapper holes (Hitachi realised they had a problem) & the mods = are therefore not necessary to the = flapper hole,=20 but the housing is more offset = &=20 consequently your engine pipe etc will move to the side a bit. You = need=20 to lay the 2 housings side by = side to=20 see what I mean or if you can't email me=20 back & I'll take a pix for you. I would stick to the Sreies = 4 &=20 consider = trying the Series 5 later if=20 necessary.

I charge = $630 (+ 10% GST=20 AU only) for the above including reconditioning the turbocharger but freight is = obviously an=20 issue from here as they are quite = heavy.=20 Hopefully someone nearby can help you at a reasonable cost. I sometimes also get the comp cover = "power=20 ported" or called "extrude honed" = in the=20 States rather than change covers & backplates which helps=20 further increase air flow = & helps=20 reduce inlet temperatures. Not so expensive here compared to the States I think, aprox. $180.  You should also drill & = tap a 1/8=20 Gas (NPT) thread hole into either the = turbine housing housing or exhaust manifold & test exhaustt = manifold pressure which should = roughly =3D=20 boost pressure. You can put a 1/8 steel plug=20 back in the hold after finished testing. If you find exhaust=20 manifold pressure is too high = (email me=20 with results if you like) you can machine a=20 bit of housing away around the turbine outlet blades, try about = a=20 millimetre to gauge the = differance.=20 Pressure drop across the intercooler shouldn't be more than 2 psi, a simple test = & a=20 permanent pyrometer is a good idea with=20 the probe mounted about 2" behind the turbo in the engine pipe = as=20 rotaries can tend to run too = hot. I=20 don't like to see much more than 850c for=20 reliability although many race at 950c. The pyrometer can also = be used=20 to help you tune the engine as = we used=20 to use pyro's for this years ago before=20 Air Fuel Ratio Metres (AFR's) were invented.  Finally you'll notice on the = website=20 pix I machine the exhaust housing = outlet=20 in a funnel shape (all above work done on a lathe except drilling flapper hole), to further help exit = exhaust=20 gas, the angle I use is 7 = degrees which=20 will still leave enough room for the dump pipe to seal although you may have to modify the = gasket=20 & dump pipe should you find there = diameters=20 are small than the turbine outlet diameter after modifying.

Hope this helps & = if you have any=20 further questions please fell free to ask.

Regards

Max Heywood ATS/Turbonetics

20a Assembly = Drive,

Tullamarine, = Vic.,

Australia, = 3043.

Phone- 613 = 93351254

Fax- 613 = 93351264

www.turbonetics.com.au

 

 

----- Original Message=20 -----

From: "Schemmel, Grant" = <Grant.Schemmel@Aeroflex.com>

To:=20 <sales@turbonetics.com.au>

Sent: Wednesday, May = 19, 2004 3:30=20 AM

Subject: 13B turbo=20 modification

 

> Dear = Sirs:

>

> I was referred to = your website=20 from a rotary newsgroup. I have a '90 13b

turbo engine which I = plan to install=20 in an off-road vehicle, that will see

sustained 5000 - 8000 = rpm use, low=20 rpm operation will not be a factor. I'm

hoping to set up the = engine up to run=20 at around 220 - 250 HP. I understand

from the newsgroup that = the stock=20 factory turbo will have a tendency to over

boost or creep. I also = see from your=20 website that you offer turbo

modifications to take = care of=20 this.

>

> So, could you give = me an idea as=20 to the pricing of your services on an

existing = turbo?

>

> Thanks!

>

> Grant = Schemmel

> Penrose, CO = USA

>

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Haywire=20 [mailto:haywire@telus.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 = 7:22=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Power loss diagnostics

I'm = pricing a=20 rebuilt turbo with modifications as described in http://www= .turbonetics.com.au/ATS_p&s_12a_13b.htm=20 =
 
Let us know what you find out about them and what they can = do for=20 you? And $$$? I'm interested too, just been too darn busy to contact = them=20 myself.

S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B=20 RV-9Endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm

=    "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently = desire,=20 Sincerely believe in, Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably = come to=20 pass".  

= ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C44888.E3D9A420--