X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=auZFhOzWS5H0Xlzol9Q3ww==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=J70Eh1EUuV4A:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=YT3Yr15HAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=1r3gCU85t_l6fUUYr_QA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=gwQdFklFc944pw6z-V8A:9 a=g0hNT9lb9sfaRRC4:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=wTiroRwonzHjqvaCcHYi:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pf1-f182.google.com ([209.85.210.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12924580 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 18:19:25 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.182; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf1-f182.google.com with SMTP id b13so270743pfo.8 for ; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 15:19:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=9Wq2OgpU5yhsWpLA4glXpdeeIsO+Eoh9DTo+Kt/Swfk=; b=rhWHVx3s6s48aFWHawUNwqpINuYt3VB9mzXKWkYhfQO7yRjDhctgOVBZ/naCB19zJ2 NhZm3fr4K06dziA4Cj4AawtSRUEw5GHRidnPIqYEYzVouS2Pr2AzyBZI6Ln2QpG++CtK li7hbwisHsZAa0d9sa2nWYgkeQHYKwkeZuuop3hrMSCOYaJgxvnghOLhkxeLxqu1VCTw OdGfpj+lAioalpqNpvjWCwd9q22hUujbNrPAZ4y4RShk/FuT2x5Dt+rht58bxAJgcKmb JupedkPxL95buHN+Uk4yMoAamGAyermGnygpeFXH/IbI8rctU2PZK4QjY4xxcZfkaGcj SOIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=9Wq2OgpU5yhsWpLA4glXpdeeIsO+Eoh9DTo+Kt/Swfk=; b=r1rp7U20CZPbbfGsxo5UD4uli8dP97cNDMwlijCMalyw/REsHrd0IgxbEOgs/IRYB/ Gsh7SsoeDNCw9dW2meOZm6FjJWcWouMG42jjx/2hF8CLytFe2R+a6YZieGp8xSCJV2Nj IaIxNRLAsXxcsut8YPOiu8uwoZJEsEwY6b9CsmV6YLqgkQydrsAFJ4JIqcYcZSU91s1B sIyxinUXZnhJ3Ly66d0PLgIRDU4yI0FNm0dpvdLgMjuEonO614Ox9u0ldo1jwoNBSFOw Wz8rnn0ZKleD8aS427ONeMetXdWo5F8WOUM3x8oVuj6aNjEDy0i/tIMPtFyE+nF1zp/6 Trog== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXeF+N28//u6qHr7vsCbqslsHl5yT8p1VXEK0tCwG+wOY6L7Ma6 7P9WQGclm+XP8xxBCKI6gBvvOV9A X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyIsRH4KOTaCmw/VJCGwrL8HfJIAWYn5iO12cVzKDQAKb7KeSDfxugEAAX7HSPAS9TmUB1Giw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:bc06:: with SMTP id w6mr505438pjr.45.1567635547565; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 15:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.0.106] ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a186sm129202pge.0.2019.09.04.15.19.06 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Sep 2019 15:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The ultimate question... To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <2f766661-ac22-dbda-4094-9e4cba4809aa@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:19:04 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D2D9EC732A3924D185B1A7F7" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D2D9EC732A3924D185B1A7F7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave,                   Still trying to get around to fitting a turbo, possibly next lifetime the way I am going.  What turbo did you end up fitting, and what size cooler?   Neil. On 9/5/2019 6:36 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: > I agree with Marc.  A proper single turbo will be more efficient, more > reliable, and much easier to install. Sequential turbos are most > helpful to minimize turbo lag in automotive applications.  Stock one > or two-piece apex seals are plenty (even preferred) for modest boost > levels (up to 150 hp per rotor or so). > > The rotary will not burn less fuel than an 8 cyl aircraft engine at > the same output.  It will burn more, but not an excessive amount more. > > Dave Leonard > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:24 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net > > wrote: > > That does not sound to me like a suitable aircraft configuration. > A single turbo would suffice, the controller/wastegate would dial > in the boost needed to maintain SL pressure in the manifold at any > condition, there isn't a reason to 'overboost' the engine. Too > complicated and unnecessary-especially all the hot turbo piping > could get very messy. > Is the engine builder using ceramic rotor tip seals? Good idea for > boosted engines. > MW > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2019 2:00 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The ultimate question... > > Was just talking to the engine builder and the answer to one > question also answered another - > > The reason that the engine will have two turbos is that they are > set up sequentially - the first one operates as a turbo normaliser > to 500 rpm above cruise rpm.  Once the throttle is opened past > that point for takeoff/climbout the second turbo kicks in to more > power. > > That also explains the fuel efficiency at cruise - only a small > turbo is operating to provide turbo normalisation.  Hope this > makes sense! > > > > On 4/09/2019 11:21 am, Kent Bedford kbedford@alphalink.com.au > wrote: > > Kind of strange how it worked out, but when we made a small > change to > > the design that gave a tangible benefit we suddenly found ourselves > > with room for an extra 40 gallons on top of what we already had > - 90 > > gallons should be enough for range to be governed by bladder size > > instead of fuel tank size. > > > > On 4/09/2019 6:08 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com > wrote: > >> On 9/3/2019 2:31 AM, Kent Bedford kbedford@alphalink.com.au > wrote: > >>> ...if someone has an about 450hp four rotor + turbo engine with > >>> effective cooling, and resolves the torsional vibration and > >>> resonance issues (which will partly be resolved by having four > >>> rotors anyway), are there any other foreseeable likely or > possible > >>> issues that may need to be overcome to successfully operate it > with > >>> a good 500hp-rated PSRU like a Ballistic or similar? > >>> > >> Figuring out where to put the fuel, unless you're talking about a > >> time-to-climb record attempt or Reno racer. Any usable a/c at that > >> power level may require your own refinery. > >> Charlie > >> > >> > >> --- > >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus > software. > >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive and UnSub: > >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --------------D2D9EC732A3924D185B1A7F7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dave,

                  Still trying to get around to fitting a turbo, possibly next lifetime the way I am going.  What turbo did you end up fitting, and what size cooler?   Neil.

On 9/5/2019 6:36 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with Marc.  A proper single turbo will be more efficient, more reliable, and much easier to install.  Sequential turbos are most helpful to minimize turbo lag in automotive applications.  Stock one or two-piece apex seals are plenty (even preferred) for modest boost levels (up to 150 hp per rotor or so).

The rotary will not burn less fuel than an 8 cyl aircraft engine at the same output.  It will burn more, but not an excessive amount more.

Dave Leonard

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:24 PM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
That does not sound to me like a suitable aircraft configuration.
A single turbo would suffice, the controller/wastegate would dial in the boost needed to maintain SL pressure in the manifold at any condition, there isn't a reason to 'overboost' the engine. Too complicated and unnecessary-especially all the hot turbo piping could get very messy.
Is the engine builder using ceramic rotor tip seals? Good idea for boosted engines.
MW

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2019 2:00 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The ultimate question...

Was just talking to the engine builder and the answer to one question also answered another -

The reason that the engine will have two turbos is that they are set up sequentially - the first one operates as a turbo normaliser to 500 rpm above cruise rpm.  Once the throttle is opened past that point for takeoff/climbout the second turbo kicks in to more power.

That also explains the fuel efficiency at cruise - only a small turbo is operating to provide turbo normalisation.  Hope this makes sense!



On 4/09/2019 11:21 am, Kent Bedford kbedford@alphalink.com.au wrote:
> Kind of strange how it worked out, but when we made a small change to
> the design that gave a tangible benefit we suddenly found ourselves
> with room for an extra 40 gallons on top of what we already had - 90
> gallons should be enough for range to be governed by bladder size
> instead of fuel tank size.
>
> On 4/09/2019 6:08 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
>> On 9/3/2019 2:31 AM, Kent Bedford kbedford@alphalink.com.au wrote:
>>> ...if someone has an about 450hp four rotor + turbo engine with
>>> effective cooling, and resolves the torsional vibration and
>>> resonance issues (which will partly be resolved by having four
>>> rotors anyway), are there any other foreseeable likely or possible
>>> issues that may need to be overcome to successfully operate it with
>>> a good 500hp-rated PSRU like a Ballistic or similar?
>>>
>> Figuring out where to put the fuel, unless you're talking about a
>> time-to-climb record attempt or Reno racer. Any usable a/c at that
>> power level may require your own refinery.
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>>
>> --
>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub:
>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>


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