X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=1qe/KHY/cVbSjvybk1J6zg==:117 a=yZbu7sS/WvwVtrYwDntx8w==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=J70Eh1EUuV4A:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=x-75qrxFAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=9uMtuDzwBp1Y8seqUrIA:9 a=OHb5_uWVNUN6QcQ9:21 a=iSMESIwnT2qF-b5R:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=4hVreLlt7OsA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=K_Pv9SaLS-kA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=3Gg4v1gDLYZeto7N8bwA:9 a=90GtZP-8ZMiZ_tqN:21 a=caeIHy0jaeymVKBZ:21 a=10Q22irPhTZmXmRe:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=B_RyunTPg8udlmYm5Cu2:22 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=pSfGKr4syse1NfsQC3dY:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "rdarrah@austin.rr.com rdarrah@austin.rr.com" Received: from [107.14.73.226] (HELO dnvrco-cmomta01.email.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12918058 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 01:04:38 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=107.14.73.226; envelope-from=rdarrah@austin.rr.com Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([70.112.153.29]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPA id 50zLiq1HbP08850zNiXtea; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 05:04:22 +0000 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2A9D3357-ADB3-4245-9319-D1303ACCE87A X-Mailer: iPad Mail (13G36) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <5EFF28DD-AC23-422E-BC7A-D311C8568096@austin.rr.com> Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 00:04:18 -0500 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfETE1mJVyhCnopuxJK1lmBJJIHeYWYDvLJ5tW4KaCtxcv/4smVmjH1LS/5H8Ib8/Rfzl0Pm9qs0gMqS72uxMqmjr18N8ugw3upDzws/VP/nLR4XisPYL QVGrJwdJJX7avRcJ4QgWkwYcIJeVV9232o4I6zF4GDoqrGk27ai1UXaJ6H08xT9BNI6TgzX6lsjVOA== --Apple-Mail-2A9D3357-ADB3-4245-9319-D1303ACCE87A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A bearing scraper. No joke. like a triangular file with no teeth, but very= sharp corners. Should be available at any good machine shop supply shop. Sent from my iPad > On Sep 2, 2019, at 8:39 PM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > Ok, thanks Bob. Scrape with what? Or should I just let it find its own s= pace? >=20 >> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 2:49 PM rdarrah@austin.rr.com rdarrah@austin.rr.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> Dave, >>=20 >> DO NOT take fine sand paper to your new (or old )bearings! The fine grit= will embed itself in the metal and you will wear out the eccentric shaft i= n a couple hundred hours. Scrape them, but no fine sand paper! >>=20 >> Bob Darrah >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >>> On Sep 2, 2019, at 10:43 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Bobby, most definately I had made sure the rotors were clear, along w= ith most of the other tricks (eh, except hot coffee). At this point I am st= ill 90% sure that the problem was low compression due to wear and tear. >>>=20 >>> Now that I have completed the re-build add tested and/or replaced every o= ther component of the eletrical and fuel systems I am still convinced that m= y problem is once again low compression (I cant get it to start at all now).= My leading theory is that during the rebuild I took Lynn's advise a little= too seriously and did not file down my side seals enough. Perhaps if I can= just get it started one time, those side seals will break-in quickly and al= l will be good. But, more than likely I will need to t the ecentriremove th= e engine from the plane again and take it apart just so I can get a file on t= hose side seals. While there I will also take some fine sand paper to my ne= w bearings so they are a little less tight. >>>=20 >>> The act of writting that tale in electrons helped me to figure out my on= going woes, that are difficult to face because of the work involved in anoth= er re-build. >>>=20 >>> At this point it is an internal battle betweeen wanting my plane back an= d not wanting to dive into another rebuild. Its a lot like childbirth. Over= time the pain of the rebuild will be forgotten and the desire for my plane w= ill increase to the point where I am ready to endure the proess again. >>>=20 >>> I really thank everyone for the comments and input. It reassured me tha= t I was not missing something easy to fix that I had not thought of. >>>=20 >>> David Leonard >>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >>> 229 mph qualifying time at Reno 2011 (probably 300+ hp then) >>> 1100+ hours over 14 years flying >>> 6 rebuilds over the years, probably about to be 7. (But this was the fi= rst time I replaced the iron side housings) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 6:51 AM Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >>>> Dave, >>>>=20 >>>> Have you attempted a hot start with the fuel pumps off to clear the eng= ine? Leaking injectors after shutdown? >>>>=20 >>>> Bobby=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>=20 >>>>> On Aug 31, 2019, at 2:38 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I have a fuel temp sensor on my fuel return. Actually it's a GM flex s= ensor, that detects ethanol % and gives temperature as a bonus. When I've sh= ut down, I have seen the fuel temps climb to 120F (and probably more). It ta= kes about 10-20seconds to turn on the fuel pump, to see the temperatures sta= rt to drop back down to 90F.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hard to start when the fuel temps that high on a hot engine. >>>>>=20 >>>>> - Matt Boiteau >>>>>> On 2019-08-31 11:18:54 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I agree with Finn. Alternator noise would be my first guess. You coul= d try adding a filter and dedicated ground from alternator back to FWF main g= round point. Jumper cable for temporary ground wire. Hot fuel should not be p= ossible with return lines.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Bobby=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Aug 31, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Tried to replace the alternator? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Really good ground battery to alternator? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line t= o the EC2? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> (I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere w= hen hot.) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures i= t to heat individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find t= he intermittently bad component. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Finn >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>> Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please! >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY= (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet u= p with my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our p= lanes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would= crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After rechargin= g for a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off a= s some sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts whe= n pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a g= as stop until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts= and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on w= ith the prop spinning. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it w= ould run really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or s= o.?? By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagg= ing and occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it= could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs= . (No improveement) >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe th= e voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li I= on batteries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrgy st= orage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it cons= idering they are also supposed to last longer. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it n= ot solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster c= harge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, maki= ng the problem worse. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixt= ures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggr= aded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless tur= ning really fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternato= r made the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expande= d just enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that= engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7= .?? Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Tim= e for a rebuild. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o= -rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., E= GR passages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.??= All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a differen= t CAS just for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, comp= ression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex se= al little bits are still glued on.. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Jump in here anytime. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator a= nd keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-i= n.???? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> This talk has been really helpful for me. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Dave Leonard >>>>>>>> (the forever optimist) >>>>>>>> Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? T= he new engine will never know how good it has it.?? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???. >>>>>>>>> While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-sp= eed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my co= olant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overhe= at. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, b= ut I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note,= need to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to l= et the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes a= fter shutdown* >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons= are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list= of mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> 25hours, 99% ground testing >>>>>>>>> The iron plates were lapped and renitraded=20 >>>>>>>>> Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports >>>>>>>>> RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Oil >>>>>>>>> ~125psi at full throttle >>>>>>>>> 20w50 VR1 high zinc >>>>>>>>> RX7 rear pressure regulator >>>>>>>>> 2 washers under front pressure regulator >>>>>>>>> weber jet kit >>>>>>>>> thermal pellet >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Coolant >>>>>>>>> 1.3bar cap >>>>>>>>> ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lot= s of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached) >>>>>>>>> 70/30 Zerex G-05 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> ?? >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner wa= ter jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com= /store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> - Matt Boiteau >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyr= otary/List.html --Apple-Mail-2A9D3357-ADB3-4245-9319-D1303ACCE87A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A bearing scraper.  No joke. &nbs= p;like a triangular file with no teeth, but very sharp corners.  Should= be available at any good machine shop supply shop.
Sent from my iPad

On Sep 2, 2019, at 8:39 PM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Ok, thanks Bob.  Scrape wit= h what?  Or should I just let it find its own space?

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019,= 2:49 PM rdarrah@austin.rr.com <= a href=3D"mailto:rdarrah@austin.rr.com">rdarrah@austin.rr.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= wrote:
Dave,<= /div>

DO NOT take fine sand paper to you= r new (or old )bearings!  The fine grit will embed itself in the metal a= nd you will wear  out the eccentric shaft in a couple hundred hours. &n= bsp; Scrape them, but no fine sand paper!

Bob Darrah

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 2, 2019, a= t 10:43 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net> wrote:

Hi Bobby, most definately I had made sure the rotors were cle= ar, along with most of the other tricks (eh, except hot coffee).  At th= is point I am still 90% sure that the problem was low compression due to wea= r and tear.

Now that I have com= pleted the re-build add tested and/or replaced every other component of the e= letrical and fuel systems I am still convinced that my problem is once again= low compression (I cant get it to start at all now).  My leading theor= y is that during the rebuild I took Lynn's advise a little too seriously and= did not file down my side seals enough.  Perhaps if I can just get it s= tarted one time, those side seals will break-in quickly and all will be good= .  But, more than likely I will need to t the ecentriremove the engine f= rom the plane again and take it apart just so I can get a file on those side= seals.  While there I will also take some fine sand paper to my new be= arings so they are a little less tight.

The act of writting that tale in electrons helped me to figur= e out my ongoing woes, that are difficult to face because of the work involv= ed in another re-build.

A= t this point it is an internal battle betweeen wanting my plane back and not= wanting to dive into another rebuild.  Its a lot like childbirth. Over= time the pain of the rebuild will be forgotten and the desire for my plane w= ill increase to the point where I am ready to endure the proess again.
=

I really thank everyone for th= e comments and input.  It reassured me that I was not missing something= easy to fix that I had not thought of.

David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
229 mph qualifying time at Reno 2011 (probably 300+ hp= then)
1100+ hours over 14 years flying
6 rebuilds over the years, probably about to be 7.  (But this= was the first time I replaced the iron side housings)


On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 6:51 AM Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Dave,

Have you attempte= d a hot start with the fuel pumps off to clear the engine? Leaking injectors= after shutdown?

Bobby 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 31, 2019, at 2:38 P= M, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I have a fuel temp sensor on my fuel= return. Actually it's a GM flex sensor, that detects ethanol % and gives te= mperature as a bonus. When I've shut down, I have seen the fuel temps climb t= o 120F (and probably more). It takes about 10-20seconds to turn on the fuel p= ump, to see the temperatures start to drop back down to 90F. 

Ha= rd to start when the fuel temps that high on a hot engine.

- Matt Boit= eau

On 2019-0= 8-31 11:18:54 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I agree with Finn. Alternator noise would be my first guess. You c= ould try adding a filter and dedicated ground from alternator back to FWF ma= in ground point. Jumper cable for temporary ground wire. Hot fuel should not= be possible with return lines. 

Bobby 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 31, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@v= erizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wr= ote:

=20 =20 =20 =20
Tried to replace the alternator?

Really good ground battery to alternator?

Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the EC2?

(I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when hot.)

You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to heat individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the intermittently bad component.

Finn

On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:
=20
Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please!

It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it would run really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.?? By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it considering they are also supposed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement.

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning really fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.?? Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., EGR passages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness.

And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a different CAS just for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.????

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? The new engine will never know how good it has it.??



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM= Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???.
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

??

I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsr= otary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.c= om/
Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html


=20
= --Apple-Mail-2A9D3357-ADB3-4245-9319-D1303ACCE87A--