X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=/yKVBM/CKBUu5kGmEPea0Q==:117 a=yZbu7sS/WvwVtrYwDntx8w==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=J70Eh1EUuV4A:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=x-75qrxFAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=6ndTwRrVUCnxi65jwQcA:9 a=6k0ZmRcCY38pJHAa:21 a=Z3p7UAqNZvqKjx3O:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=4hVreLlt7OsA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=K_Pv9SaLS-kA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=a45UzwrQ_8uFqAkFH-IA:9 a=swVv4Z9AnnHyXZN8:21 a=DIP-c-pw1mhRprs0:21 a=2rYobLgUA1So7VXz:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=pSfGKr4syse1NfsQC3dY:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "rdarrah@austin.rr.com rdarrah@austin.rr.com" Received: from [107.14.73.231] (HELO dnvrco-cmomta01.email.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12917268 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 17:30:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=107.14.73.231; envelope-from=rdarrah@austin.rr.com Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([70.112.153.29]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPA id 4ttzifNBZP0884tu3iUGyu; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 21:30:24 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-4C1858FF-A312-43F6-B63D-307EE41E4CF9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild References: In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <7583E684-AAE9-4490-86D4-FF370A67E0E3@austin.rr.com> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 16:00:37 -0500 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPad Mail (13G36) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJjRXvnfqFGZgMmUoLTLsKdrKU0LQyJl2ReV2b5WyX+3P47ISSDgkMj6VvUeseSP7ylU/+09JtyUzaaOzIPAl0aHqOR//Q4/pCTowBbc6MDKy7fDZxZK vHg6FqhBnTm3caLaJuXBAwGPnW3bYtM4Oi18iR+D+tm4T3XWsjEvxdfw8XFb49i5L7CxvoVKPrBwxQ== --Apple-Mail-4C1858FF-A312-43F6-B63D-307EE41E4CF9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, DO NOT take fine sand paper to your new (or old )bearings! The fine grit wi= ll embed itself in the metal and you will wear out the eccentric shaft in a= couple hundred hours. Scrape them, but no fine sand paper! Bob Darrah Sent from my iPad > On Sep 2, 2019, at 10:43 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > Hi Bobby, most definately I had made sure the rotors were clear, along wit= h most of the other tricks (eh, except hot coffee). At this point I am stil= l 90% sure that the problem was low compression due to wear and tear. >=20 > Now that I have completed the re-build add tested and/or replaced every ot= her component of the eletrical and fuel systems I am still convinced that my= problem is once again low compression (I cant get it to start at all now). = My leading theory is that during the rebuild I took Lynn's advise a little t= oo seriously and did not file down my side seals enough. Perhaps if I can j= ust get it started one time, those side seals will break-in quickly and all w= ill be good. But, more than likely I will need to t the ecentriremove the e= ngine from the plane again and take it apart just so I can get a file on tho= se side seals. While there I will also take some fine sand paper to my new b= earings so they are a little less tight. >=20 > The act of writting that tale in electrons helped me to figure out my ongo= ing woes, that are difficult to face because of the work involved in another= re-build. >=20 > At this point it is an internal battle betweeen wanting my plane back and n= ot wanting to dive into another rebuild. Its a lot like childbirth. Over ti= me the pain of the rebuild will be forgotten and the desire for my plane wil= l increase to the point where I am ready to endure the proess again. >=20 > I really thank everyone for the comments and input. It reassured me that I= was not missing something easy to fix that I had not thought of. >=20 > David Leonard > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > 229 mph qualifying time at Reno 2011 (probably 300+ hp then) > 1100+ hours over 14 years flying > 6 rebuilds over the years, probably about to be 7. (But this was the firs= t time I replaced the iron side housings) >=20 >=20 >> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 6:51 AM Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >> Dave, >>=20 >> Have you attempted a hot start with the fuel pumps off to clear the engin= e? Leaking injectors after shutdown? >>=20 >> Bobby=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >>> On Aug 31, 2019, at 2:38 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >>>=20 >>> I have a fuel temp sensor on my fuel return. Actually it's a GM flex sen= sor, that detects ethanol % and gives temperature as a bonus. When I've shut= down, I have seen the fuel temps climb to 120F (and probably more). It take= s about 10-20seconds to turn on the fuel pump, to see the temperatures start= to drop back down to 90F.=20 >>>=20 >>> Hard to start when the fuel temps that high on a hot engine. >>>=20 >>> - Matt Boiteau >>>> On 2019-08-31 11:18:54 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I agree with Finn. Alternator noise would be my first guess. You could t= ry adding a filter and dedicated ground from alternator back to FWF main gro= und point. Jumper cable for temporary ground wire. Hot fuel should not be po= ssible with return lines.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Bobby=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>=20 >>>>> On Aug 31, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Tried to replace the alternator? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Really good ground battery to alternator? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to t= he EC2? >>>>>=20 >>>>> (I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere whe= n hot.) >>>>>=20 >>>>> You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it t= o heat individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the i= ntermittently bad component. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Finn >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please! >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (= Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet up= with my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our pl= anes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would c= rank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging f= or a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as s= ome sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when p= re-warmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas= stop until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts a= nd there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on wit= h the prop spinning. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it wou= ld run really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.= ?? By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by saggin= g and occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it c= ould take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (= No improveement) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the v= oltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li Ion b= atteries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrgy storag= e, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it consider= ing they are also supposed to last longer. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it no= t solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster c= harge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, maki= ng the problem worse. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtur= es of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggrad= ed to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turni= ng really fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator m= ade the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded j= ust enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that en= gine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.??= Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time f= or a rebuild. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-= rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., E= GR passages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? A= ll sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a different C= AS just for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, compres= sion is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal l= ittle bits are still glued on.. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Jump in here anytime. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and= keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.= ???? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> This talk has been really helpful for me. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Dave Leonard >>>>>> (the forever optimist) >>>>>> Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? Th= e new engine will never know how good it has it.?? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???. >>>>>>> While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-spee= d taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my cool= ant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat= . Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but= I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, n= eed to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let= the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes aft= er shutdown* >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons a= re warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list o= f mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 25hours, 99% ground testing >>>>>>> The iron plates were lapped and renitraded=20 >>>>>>> Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports >>>>>>> RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Oil >>>>>>> ~125psi at full throttle >>>>>>> 20w50 VR1 high zinc >>>>>>> RX7 rear pressure regulator >>>>>>> 2 washers under front pressure regulator >>>>>>> weber jet kit >>>>>>> thermal pellet >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Coolant >>>>>>> 1.3bar cap >>>>>>> ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots o= f noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached) >>>>>>> 70/30 Zerex G-05 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> ?? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner wate= r jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/s= tore/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> - Matt Boiteau >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>> Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrot= ary/List.html --Apple-Mail-4C1858FF-A312-43F6-B63D-307EE41E4CF9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave,

DO NOT take fine sand paper to y= our new (or old )bearings!  The fine grit will embed itself in the meta= l and you will wear  out the eccentric shaft in a couple hundred hours.=   Scrape them, but no fine sand paper!

Bob Darrah

Sent from my= iPad

On Sep 2, 2019, at 10:43 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= /div>
Hi Bobby, most definat= ely I had made sure the rotors were clear, along with most of the other tric= ks (eh, except hot coffee).  At this point I am still 90% sure that the= problem was low compression due to wear and tear.

Now that I have completed the re-build add tested and/or= replaced every other component of the eletrical and fuel systems I am still= convinced that my problem is once again low compression (I cant get it to s= tart at all now).  My leading theory is that during the rebuild I took L= ynn's advise a little too seriously and did not file down my side seals enou= gh.  Perhaps if I can just get it started one time, those side seals wi= ll break-in quickly and all will be good.  But, more than likely I will= need to t the ecentriremove the engine from the plane again and take it apa= rt just so I can get a file on those side seals.  While there I will al= so take some fine sand paper to my new bearings so they are a little less ti= ght.

The act of writting t= hat tale in electrons helped me to figure out my ongoing woes, that are diff= icult to face because of the work involved in another re-build.

At this point it is an internal battl= e betweeen wanting my plane back and not wanting to dive into another rebuil= d.  Its a lot like childbirth. Over time the pain of the rebuild will b= e forgotten and the desire for my plane will increase to the point where I a= m ready to endure the proess again.

I really thank everyone for the comments and input.  It reas= sured me that I was not missing something easy to fix that I had not thought= of.

David Leonard
<= div dir=3D"auto">Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
229 mph quali= fying time at Reno 2011 (probably 300+ hp then)
1100+= hours over 14 years flying
6 rebuilds over the years= , probably about to be 7.  (But this was the first time I replaced the i= ron side housings)


On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 6:51= AM Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net= <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net> wrote:
= Dave,

Have you attempted a hot start with the fuel pumps o= ff to clear the engine? Leaking injectors after shutdown?

Bobby 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug= 31, 2019, at 2:38 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I have a fuel temp sensor on my fuel= return. Actually it's a GM flex sensor, that detects ethanol % and gives te= mperature as a bonus. When I've shut down, I have seen the fuel temps climb t= o 120F (and probably more). It takes about 10-20seconds to turn on the fuel p= ump, to see the temperatures start to drop back down to 90F. 

Ha= rd to start when the fuel temps that high on a hot engine.

- Matt Boiteau

On 2019-0= 8-31 11:18:54 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net> wrote:

I agree wit= h Finn. Alternator noise would be my first guess. You could try adding a fil= ter and dedicated ground from alternator back to FWF main ground point. Jump= er cable for temporary ground wire. Hot fuel should not be possible with ret= urn lines. 

Bobby = ;

Sen= t from my iPad

On Aug 31, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Finn L= assen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t> wrote:

=20 =20 =20 =20
Tried to replace the= alternator?

Really good ground battery to alternator?

Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the EC2?

(I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when hot.)

You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to heat individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the intermittently bad component.

Finn

On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:
=20
Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please!

It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it would run really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.?? By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it considering they are also supposed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement.

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning really fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.?? Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., EGR passages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness.

And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a different CAS just for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.????

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? The new engine will never know how good it has it.??



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM= Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???.
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

??

I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/s= tore/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.com/
= Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


=20
= --Apple-Mail-4C1858FF-A312-43F6-B63D-307EE41E4CF9--