X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=drgkf2HDvi6yhwNXZwFDRA==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=oSMvVwY2MYMA:10 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=XEXbhNRbLzE8ej67IBMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=rehD1sWUauDigZ_YAscA:9 a=_jitIcU5oI2S8dKX:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com" Received: from mail-qk1-f172.google.com ([209.85.222.172] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12912188 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 17:37:28 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.222.172; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-qk1-f172.google.com with SMTP id u190so9368452qkh.5 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:37:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DZVFATlgPtd7qT3EDQyW0J4BPCqrHLHesropZf9DA8s=; b=s2Q0Q/4TyZ1SlZ7oJgvSuJZt3WpsZ4Zi1Ul6te2r5INiARwuwlrRNrsJQ4BLlyxPyQ 80/DaRbonaaTtSGRLmUdiB7mfPEYsTaEbCIUCvFCWcOotay1wf9XiHm8OzPCp/LEo4pk I3xXyFqkTqlxuvrGw0NgGxpT8zdipMTTjD4kCyOZksK7CkT9mftpAd6hOe77etyeMAWH X7jI3DHpwXkbw+IMCaXI9oBBPkLMpg+LoSwvSSRze/Hrwe9gPCpohDxejNVgOs1dFHHc uRbXFSjGO3+KwxRbTMCEP2FGZHQX5O5JNQ5vHFAKkZ+cbXZIXOTGL5kFOaIV4GNartEt gaaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=DZVFATlgPtd7qT3EDQyW0J4BPCqrHLHesropZf9DA8s=; b=q6w0gU07s5mc79h3TgJDB2vU5aL3QnQyNwpGJKWEzzeZ9W28ZzSTak8rRVJIKigdji zqH2MqUQDAMJhJl7lwhOPvI8Jsw7gvgkdrPNFOsrw/WG1NjbwlI7rUrDzwr8HMQVHXOf mhfkDIjgpvsBEO/BYJjcRYziLEPxKvJpv9Q1vUR7dIoyUb/TFpVXEY1cdVdF3hPFF6fI 8scZmNVEvU+iSHwP4xhXWLTov/mxcg8OW5a2u6CyfL26Bjx9iFUNKEpzxttGaUxK0W7Z c9u6F2aYy6G48PgxEmDmw2pv4t4/MCjpniFc799Yq/XwQ4+wYMvG1J5d7v/rQcD0LZDV JfYA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWAtFg7yaK8QLutF65WrX3/UfzxYpP8tFY6VMW/5etMeUuv58Jn m1v0d9vrZ9+bg7lHVjQFNp86fn2EX9OmDMmeuKEBzf6z X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyUqx4LYExE1eB8kuW3zwxR0eLLwLlMIRJQisaAEjiedbl+Rx8KjEALHR4WpHNPO669yhrY5/smLryOOKgIrSo= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a545:: with SMTP id o66mr3548673qke.96.1567287431420; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:37:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:37:00 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] no hot start To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009c60030591708a29" --0000000000009c60030591708a29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Neil, That does sound like an all too familiar story. In the past I have dealt with a similar starter-like issue that I eventually tracked to corrosion on a 4 gauge crimp. But this time the starter is performng like a champ. When I say it wont catch, I mean that the engine turns over great and there is some combustion going on, just not enough to keep the engine going. But I am sure my actual problem is pretty similar in some way. Corrosion somewhere on something is an almost given as the underlying root cause. Thanks for the story, David Leonard On Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 3:21 AM Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Dave, > > Thinking about your starter problem suddenly brought > back sad memories from over 20 years ago when I owned 2 Claas 106 > headers (ag machines) which were without doubt the greatest Lemons that > Claas ever produced , and I had 2 of them. Besides the usual grief these > monstrosities gave, the engines always started and ran beautifully up > until about 2000 - 2500 hours. The engines were V6 mercedes diesels > with Bosch starters. Then once these hours were reached they would start > cold perfectly, but once hot refused to turn over until cold. The > starters just did not throw in at all. To remove the starters required > the Cab to be tilted forwards which opened up a small gap between the > cab and the engine bay. By sliding down like a snake, one could then > remove the side panel of the engine bay --- all at red hot in the > middle of summer. With the engine bay cover removed it exposed the > starter for removal. Only trouble was that the exhaust manifold had to > be removed first to get to the starter!! Trust me it was such a joy > that it was sheer desperation to be forced to remove the starter. > > Every time the starter would turn over perfectly on the bench. > Disassembled and resembled many times for no fault whatever, they always > performed perfectly on the bench, but hot in the machine--- no way. > Then about the 10th time and many hours later on the bench it was > getting dark and when the power was applied to the starter, sparks flew > from the rear cage of the starter. In broad daylight it would never > have been picked up. The rear cage held the brushes and was solid > riveted to the main body and had to carry the current between the two > parts. After drilling out the solid rivets it was obvious that black > corrosion has set in and effectively insulated the Brushes cage from any > current when hot. Without having seen it I would say it was impossible. > All was cleaned up, re -riveted and soldered for good measure and > Whacko, all worked as it should hot or cold. > > Does it have any relevance to the rotary starter??? I do not know, but a > change of starter would tell all. The corrosion in the Bosch starter > accumulated over 2500 hours and would never had been picked up without > that chance test in semi darkness. > > Suggest all connections to the starter be meticulously cleaned as the > slightest corrosion may stop current flow when hot, or impede enough > that it just drags current away for no effect. A bad connection will > heat, drag current away and effectively react as if the battery is half > flat. Also never buy a Claas 106 header unless you wish to learn to > swear. > > Neil. > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --0000000000009c60030591708a29 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Neil,=C2=A0=C2=A0
That does sound lik= e an all too familiar story.=C2=A0 In the past I have dealt with a similar = starter-like issue that I eventually tracked to corrosion on a 4 gauge crim= p.=C2=A0=C2=A0

But this = time the starter is performng like a champ. When I say it wont catch, I mea= n that the engine turns over great and there is some combustion going on, j= ust not enough to keep the engine going.=C2=A0

<= /div>
But I am sure my actual problem is pretty similar in= some way.=C2=A0 Corrosion somewhere on something is an almost given as the= underlying root cause.

= Thanks for the story,
David Leonard

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Sat, Aug= 31, 2019, 3:21 AM Neil Unger 12348un= g@gmail.com <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:
= Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thinking about your starter problem suddenly brought
back sad memories from over 20 years ago when I owned 2 Claas 106
headers (ag machines) which were without doubt the greatest Lemons that Claas ever produced , and I had 2 of them. Besides the usual grief these monstrosities=C2=A0 gave, the engines always started and ran beautifully up=
until about 2000 - 2500 hours.=C2=A0 The engines were V6 mercedes diesels <= br> with Bosch starters. Then once these hours were reached they would start cold perfectly, but once hot refused to turn over until cold.=C2=A0 The starters just did not throw in at all.=C2=A0 To remove the starters require= d
the Cab to be tilted forwards which opened up a small gap between the
cab and the engine bay. By sliding down like a snake, one could then
remove the side=C2=A0 panel of the engine bay --- all at red hot in the middle of summer.=C2=A0 With the engine bay cover removed it exposed the starter for removal.=C2=A0 Only trouble was that the exhaust manifold had t= o
be removed first to get to the starter!!=C2=A0 Trust me it was such a joy <= br> that it was sheer desperation to be forced to remove the starter.

Every time the starter would turn over perfectly on the bench.
Disassembled and resembled many times for no fault whatever, they always performed perfectly on the bench, but hot in the machine--- no way.=C2=A0 <= br> Then about the 10th time and many hours later=C2=A0 on the bench it was getting dark and when the power was applied to the starter, sparks flew from the rear cage of the starter.=C2=A0 In broad daylight it would never <= br> have been picked up.=C2=A0 The rear cage held the brushes and was solid riveted=C2=A0 to the main body and had to carry the current between the two=
parts.=C2=A0 After drilling out the solid rivets it was obvious that black =
corrosion has set in and effectively insulated the Brushes cage from any current when hot. Without having seen it I would say it was impossible. =C2=A0=C2=A0 All was cleaned up, re -riveted=C2=A0 and soldered for good me= asure and
Whacko, all worked as it should hot or cold.

Does it have any relevance to the rotary starter??? I do not know, but a change of starter would tell all.=C2=A0 The corrosion in the Bosch starter =
accumulated over 2500 hours and would never had been picked up without
that chance test in semi darkness.

Suggest all connections to the starter be meticulously cleaned as the
slightest corrosion may stop current flow when hot, or impede enough
that it just drags current away for no effect.=C2=A0 A bad connection will =
heat, drag current away and effectively react as if the battery is half flat.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also never buy a Claas 106 header unless you wish to lear= n to swear.

Neil.


--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0= http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
--0000000000009c60030591708a29--