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[67.58.218.7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p9sm9040300ios.1.2019.08.31.12.37.51 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_53956226.522263521970" MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 15:37:49 -0400 Message-ID: <568d1cb7-e7b3-4698-b14b-4815616e3254@getmailbird.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild To: "Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net" In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Mailbird/2.5.43.0 X-Mailbird-ID: 568d1cb7-e7b3-4698-b14b-4815616e3254@getmailbird.com ------=_NextPart_53956226.522263521970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a fuel temp sensor on my fuel return. Actually it's a GM flex sensor= , that detects ethanol % and gives temperature as a bonus. When I've shut d= own, I have seen the fuel temps climb to 120F (and probably more). It takes= about 10-20seconds to turn on the fuel pump, to see the temperatures start= to drop back down to 90F.=C2=A0 Hard to start when the fuel temps that high on a hot engine. - Matt Boiteau On 2019-08-31 11:18:54 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: I agree with Finn. Alternator noise would be my first guess. You could try = adding a filter and dedicated ground from alternator back to FWF main groun= d point. Jumper cable for temporary ground wire. Hot fuel should not be pos= sible with return lines.=C2=A0 Bobby=C2=A0 Sent from my iPad On Aug 31, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net [mailto:fi= nn.lassen@verizon.net] wrote: Tried to replace the alternator? Really good ground battery to alternator? Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the E= C2? (I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when hot= .) You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to he= at individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the int= ermittently bad component. Finn On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com [mailto:wdleonard@g= mail.com] wrote: Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please! It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo = rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with= my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our planes= but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would cra= nk and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging f= or a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as= some sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2. But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-wa= rmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas sto= p until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts and = there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with = the prop spinning. Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it would run= really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.?? By= rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging an= d occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it coul= d take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally. I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No im= proveement) So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltag= e was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li Ion batt= eries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrgy storage,= CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it consideri= ng they are also supposed to last longer. But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it not solv= e the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge= , it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making t= he problem worse. Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of = 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it. My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to = the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning re= ally fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made= the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded jus= t enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that eng= ine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.??= Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time = for a rebuild. I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings = and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., EGR pa= ssages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness. And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? All spa= rks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a different CAS j= ust for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, compressio= n is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal li= ttle bits are still glued on.. Jump in here anytime. You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep = cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.???? This talk has been really helpful for me. Dave Leonard (the forever optimist) Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? The new = engine will never know how good it has it.?? On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com [mailto:m= attboiteau@gmail.com] wrote: Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???. While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi = tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant ex= pansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Man= aged to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I f= eel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need= to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let t= he heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes afte= r shutdown* I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warp= ed. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods= , to see if I need to change anything or add/remove. 25hours, 99% ground testing The iron plates were lapped and renitraded Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) Oil ~125psi at full throttle 20w50 VR1 high zinc RX7 rear pressure regulator 2 washers under front pressure regulator weber jet kit thermal pellet Coolant 1.3bar cap ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of nois= e at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached) 70/30 Zerex G-05 ?? I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacke= t seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/0= 4-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html [https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-R= x8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html] - Matt Boiteau -- Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.com/ [http://www.flyrotary.com/] Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html [http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html] ------=_NextPart_53956226.522263521970 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a fuel temp sensor on my fue= l return. Actually it's a GM flex sensor, that detects ethanol % and gives = temperature as a bonus. When I've shut down, I have seen the fuel temps cli= mb to 120F (and probably more). It takes about 10-20seconds to turn on the = fuel pump, to see the temperatures start to drop back down to 90F. 
Hard to start when the fuel temps that high on a hot engine.
<= br>
- Matt Boiteau

On 2= 019-08-31 11:18:54 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:

I agree with Fin= n. Alternator noise would be my first guess. You could try adding a filter = and dedicated ground from alternator back to FWF main ground point. Jumper = cable for temporary ground wire. Hot fuel should not be possible with retur= n lines. 

Bobby =

Sent from my iPad
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
On Aug 31, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

Tried to replace the alternator?

Really good ground battery to alternator?

Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the EC2?

(I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when hot.)

You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to heat individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the intermittently bad component.

Finn

On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:
Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please!

It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it would run really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.?? By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it considering they are also supposed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement.

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning really fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.?? Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., EGR passages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness.

And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a different CAS just for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.????

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? The new engine will never know how good it has it.??



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???.
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

??

I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.a= tkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:?? http://www.flyrot= ary.com/
Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary= /List.html


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