X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xuqu4LtG73bbFu04xJYfKg==:117 a=xuqu4LtG73bbFu04xJYfKg==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=x-75qrxFAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=yrzTMHptRYAj22xmRgIA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=4hVreLlt7OsA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=K_Pv9SaLS-kA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=8Rw3o8vqh-_t2S6NF_sA:9 a=k-YOjgZIeklQKc_Y:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=pSfGKr4syse1NfsQC3dY:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net" Received: from [207.91.159.28] (HELO barracuda.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTP id 12911081 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:58:34 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.91.159.28; envelope-from=btv1==14697a47c57==bhughes@qnsi.net X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1567263267-02764548c15afa0001-fw4j19 Received: from mail.qnsi.net ([10.0.0.5]) by barracuda.qnsi.net with ESMTP id j3TYDGEcPrDNgzbD for ; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 09:54:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: bhughes@qnsi.net Received: from 10.0.0.5 ([10.0.0.5]) by qnsi-mail.qnsi.net ([10.0.0.5]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:54:27 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail-51BC93E1-9514-4A52-88A1-7B5462A7F36E"; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild thread-topic: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild thread-index: AdVgC/zG3/GSb46vTDSyr+3lJ9BkKA== In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 09:54:27 -0500 Message-ID: References: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" X-Barracuda-Connect: UNKNOWN[10.0.0.5] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1567263267 X-Barracuda-URL: http://10.0.0.4:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at qnsi.net X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 1.32 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=1.32 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=1000.0 tests=BSF_SC5_SA210e, HTML_MESSAGE, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE_2, WEIRD_PORT X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.75927 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.50 WEIRD_PORT URI: Uses non-standard port number for HTTP 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.00 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars 0.82 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE_2 RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars 0.00 BSF_SC5_SA210e Custom Rule SA210e --Apple-Mail-51BC93E1-9514-4A52-88A1-7B5462A7F36E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Finn. Alternator noise would be my first guess. You could try a= dding a filter and dedicated ground from alternator back to FWF main ground p= oint. Jumper cable for temporary ground wire. Hot fuel should not be possibl= e with return lines.=20 Bobby=20 Sent from my iPad > On Aug 31, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >=20 > Tried to replace the alternator? >=20 > Really good ground battery to alternator? >=20 > Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the E= C2? >=20 > (I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when ho= t.) >=20 > You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to h= eat individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the int= ermittently bad component. >=20 > Finn >=20 >> On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: >> Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please! >>=20 >> It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turb= o rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet up wit= h my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our planes= but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would cran= k and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging for= a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as so= me sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2. >>=20 >> But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-= warmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas st= op until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts and t= here seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with th= e prop spinning. >>=20 >> Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it would r= un really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.?? B= y rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging an= d occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it could= take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally. >>=20 >> I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No i= mproveement) >>=20 >> So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the volt= age was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li Ion bat= teries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrg= y storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it c= onsidering they are also supposed to last longer. >>=20 >> But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it not so= lve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charg= e, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making t= he problem worse. >>=20 >> Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. >>=20 >> The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures o= f 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it. >>=20 >> My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded t= o the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning r= eally fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made= the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just= enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that engin= e had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.?? Co= mpression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time for a= rebuild. >>=20 >> I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-ring= s and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., EGR p= assages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness. >>=20 >> And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? All s= parks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a different CAS j= ust for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, compression= is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal litt= le bits are still glued on.. >>=20 >> Jump in here anytime. >>=20 >>=20 >> You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and kee= p cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.????= >>=20 >> This talk has been really helpful for me. >>=20 >> Dave Leonard >> (the forever optimist) >> Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? The ne= w engine will never know how good it has it.?? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: >>> Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???. >>> While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed ta= xi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant e= xpansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Man= aged to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I fe= el the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need t= o come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let the h= eat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shu= tdown* >>>=20 >>> I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are w= arped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mo= ds, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove. >>>=20 >>> 25hours, 99% ground testing >>> The iron plates were lapped and renitraded=20 >>> Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports >>> RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) >>>=20 >>> Oil >>> ~125psi at full throttle >>> 20w50 VR1 high zinc >>> RX7 rear pressure regulator >>> 2 washers under front pressure regulator >>> weber jet kit >>> thermal pellet >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Coolant >>> 1.3bar cap >>> ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of n= oise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached) >>> 70/30 Zerex G-05 >>>=20 >>> ?? >>>=20 >>> I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water ja= cket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store= /04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> - Matt Boiteau >>> -- >>> Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html --Apple-Mail-51BC93E1-9514-4A52-88A1-7B5462A7F36E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I agree with Finn. Alternator noise would be my first guess. You could try adding a filter and dedicated ground from alternator back to FWF main ground point. Jumper cable for temporary ground wire. Hot fuel should not be possible with return lines. 

Bobby 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 31, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Tried to replace the alternator?

Really good ground battery to alternator?

Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the EC2?

(I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when hot.)

You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to heat individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the intermittently bad component.

Finn

On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:
Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please!

It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it would run really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.?? By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it considering they are also supposed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement.

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning really fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.?? Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., EGR passages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness.

And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a different CAS just for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.????

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? The new engine will never know how good it has it.??



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???.
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

??

I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


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