X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=fBpEYY1kl5IeR6+UsC6mGA==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=DDNF8ybvv5wA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=_EeEMxcBAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=x-75qrxFAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=yrzTMHptRYAj22xmRgIA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=4hVreLlt7OsA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=K_Pv9SaLS-kA:10 a=5UeK9suJl1gA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=3KXbbsG6blpB2UbV:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=syqr5EOPB93U0NEwqYpB:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=pSfGKr4syse1NfsQC3dY:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f49.google.com ([209.85.208.49] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12911015 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:14:26 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.49; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f49.google.com with SMTP id g24so11285696edu.3 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 07:14:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=CYBULNFJm1DmUfIvXS8j+Zw8gStcMt42XjsvRqrurto=; b=XUMoYWTZRr6WcgzujZI4zZo3k2+OPzwC008cVniDIAJ6fDhBea9suDG4T92PCMENEY RY70XxH3LEU3lJwrKvqQ/CR/qQ0c5f58NlQ8TkNqnvgN6ecUDDtohDBY8Nu3r+X6UN8X uagdQLY3HcS48t3o5FGmlUZaZs0SrHRI1vnHQ7BQ6KIB6Yz2NKl3ZOZg0be1OdadKIg4 ssRlBywRf0VCrgSZdPV9TZZtbIiI1pIvPWR+PDpOr7a2bwMFBvEi8nOcTWe0HtS00bZD iD4dOP1C/at8plbGO0428EgLEDyHbJr7c4+YdUFCGqX9X+o518EnkYVDWSFVdfS+txhz Cgpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date :message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=CYBULNFJm1DmUfIvXS8j+Zw8gStcMt42XjsvRqrurto=; b=Kt7zERpUiFkEt3xYEvRT3sJIzsiXM3c1BKkUQWqCAyoMkQGL7mvdDiMX2XK1pIaVo1 sO2tH3g6sfi7ls+DahjszTa230zID8rlYbqOAD1E/HcUEOcShaFcAPzI+J7CBFujeX5y Ucdr2qs/d+GDfW/2QWa8Y5+qc8BGOa9YzK01uLCSi6265L3BGBlykkZudh6ubzxd10GI vwd+7RZCNgx4yRem+BqwRs8fWXwTIvXEWjbP3R2UasZC0z9lzFJWMBnymFWtoAOFCxED mWkL9/TiVhEoKy2UiwKsahff3YidViCALZuuCuNhikKO4N8fMGu7qB9rjcPV1sJvUC2E 8bcw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVHC6nT2NOjrmPNIXvB91bTTN4sjvfMRJWR0aUz9elrDFhG5mey v1vesvSBKjaLy0LvSC6IVfFWNNs9 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxFWVga9+dhZM5WafaZiVRUsW+80sNFxYA4sy5HYGiyGoNeIDZAsUgU8h14QTO95g7oKNS4Ow== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:b306:: with SMTP id n6mr9534303ejz.66.1567260847896; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 07:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from SN1PR12MB2398.namprd12.prod.outlook.com ([2603:1036:802:6::5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r20sm623859ejz.42.2019.08.31.07.14.06 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 31 Aug 2019 07:14:06 -0700 (PDT) To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild Thread-Index: ATU4MTItwJHL8HNGWt2hRDOfeTzSl8BPqCg5 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:14:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN1PR12MB239874B52CDD2BA59CFF3342FDBC0SN1PR12MB2398namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_SN1PR12MB239874B52CDD2BA59CFF3342FDBC0SN1PR12MB2398namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The starter needs to crank the rotary engine for hot start around 200 - 220= rpm. The engines start cold easily at so low rpm as 160 rpm It is very importend, to check earth ground, for the starter motor. Maybe w= hen hot, the starter is even doiing under 160 rpm Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of = Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 3:16 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild Tried to replace the alternator? Really good ground battery to alternator? Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the E= C2? (I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when hot= .) You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to he= at individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the int= ermittently bad component. Finn On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please! It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo = rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with= my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our planes= but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would cra= nk and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging f= or a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as= some sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2. But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-wa= rmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas sto= p until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts and = there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with = the prop spinning. Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it would run= really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.?? By= rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging an= d occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it coul= d take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally. I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No im= proveement) So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltag= e was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li Ion batt= eries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrgy storage,= CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it consideri= ng they are also supposed to last longer. But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it not solv= e the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge= , it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making t= he problem worse. Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of = 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it. My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to = the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning re= ally fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made= the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded jus= t enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that eng= ine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.??= Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time = for a rebuild. I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings = and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., EGR pa= ssages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness. And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? All spa= rks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a different CAS j= ust for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, compressio= n is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal li= ttle bits are still glued on.. Jump in here anytime. You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep = cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.???? This talk has been really helpful for me. Dave Leonard (the forever optimist) Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? The new = engine will never know how good it has it.?? On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com > wrote: Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???. While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi = tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant ex= pansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Man= aged to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I f= eel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need= to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let t= he heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes afte= r shutdown* I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warp= ed. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods= , to see if I need to change anything or add/remove. 25hours, 99% ground testing The iron plates were lapped and renitraded Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) Oil ~125psi at full throttle 20w50 VR1 high zinc RX7 rear pressure regulator 2 washers under front pressure regulator weber jet kit thermal pellet Coolant 1.3bar cap ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of nois= e at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached) 70/30 Zerex G-05 ?? I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacke= t seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/0= 4-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html - Matt Boiteau -- Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html --_000_SN1PR12MB239874B52CDD2BA59CFF3342FDBC0SN1PR12MB2398namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The starter needs to crank the rotary engine= for hot start around 200 - 220 rpm.
The engines start cold easily at so low rpm = as 160 rpm
It is very importend, to check earth ground,= for the starter motor. Maybe when hot, the starter is even doiing under 16= 0 rpm

Get Outlook for iOS
 
From: Rot= ary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Fin= n Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 3:16 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild
 
Tried to replace the alternator?

Really good ground battery to alternator?

Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the E= C2?

(I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when hot= .)

You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to he= at individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the int= ermittently bad component.

Finn

On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:
Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Plea= se!

It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hou= rs on N4VY (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramo= na to meet up with my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went t= o start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would crank and almost catc= h, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging for a couple hours = it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of star= t procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult = starts when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me str= anded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I test= ed air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinni= ng.

Then it started doing something else strange.?? After sta= rting it would run really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above = 55amps or so.?? By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the thro= ttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the am= ps to drop and the engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the s= park plugs. (No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong bu= t maybe the voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interes= ted in Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my tota= l enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it considering they are also sup= posed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not on= ly did it not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a = much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVE= RY start, making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement= .

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying r= icher mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had fin= ally deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion= unless turning really fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of t= he alternator made the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill= the compression.?? The side iron plates in that engine had the better part= of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.?? Compression measured m= id 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals,= springs, o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittin= gs, etc..., EGR passages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the co= il harness.

And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function v= erified.?? All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried= a different CAS just for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it = is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still = glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the al= ternator and keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit o= f a break-in.????

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil witho= ut MMO.?? The new engine will never know how good it has it.??



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt B= oiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engin= e???.
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi = tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant ex= pansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Man= aged to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked undernea= th the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that = open after shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an= electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warp= ed. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods= , to see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of nois= e at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

??

I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their = brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://m= ail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


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