X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=7kORCigVA/YmUP8X6XShkA==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=dN3GemxkeawA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=x-75qrxFAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=veQQbada6uUQKKBqwcEA:9 a=w1U7qBN4DbX-6sCH:21 a=19zzyvG0kp4Ijl-w:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4hVreLlt7OsA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=K_Pv9SaLS-kA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=fOxGrAmu1rorLiEo:21 a=WHUl11-GF-mAti64:21 a=6rc3AIML5_HyAckv:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=pSfGKr4syse1NfsQC3dY:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic308-1.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.130.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12911004 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:10:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.130.40; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1567260615; bh=MgYY22Jx/woPnSzJarwWGQbKj+1UsMHYv1hJf2MpXZk=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=ejtCO6hvmVDYLcAlwf8pX3bNHzETUNEQY+eoRDwaHmejiGgxqvhY8u/XTGD7UMRjU3uS/Obh2rGGMOr2xIvQnQGZI3sUH1yP76X3jTu5eHsh3F5mQPYk+kTucXRnhcoG+4aX1BmQowTrI0L1Q+Urop5tTBWDH5HN0khsFPAMq6eXmuOtZHO8egLHfl0MhH9JVEBdWhV09IbrE/0eSz33buL+U0Cy66ML6ecn7lIdPAbAB+JuNrxCge+PA3yzLZetkSj5SFWAhdubeDye5tSIYKEIIQcwguogtm231h0Y6f5m4hHXabzk1tr4i1c7mOI+RdL91f2n13XpU0o/cue5xQ== X-YMail-OSG: fD2fYqQVM1mD4FIZrQeL3x4DMWhtSAggzVf7YU_yaJZfniTsGuYP8lNKAZRXP52 MlOIayy5L3XAo5dwhVS2uoX5SFoFJ_JoSPsmvYtZtecZFZ27BAnxV9YGWbGjJxO1jC6HigCylksU k.o3VtcZsRvVYy2pJnifve0v8GSrqpqpn3nPGUkzAeOkOJX6NHCmS.9_Bt.l9PVFYeNjaXh._5gV qlKSTEeqz0Ewem51MMsKVt.0C5upOedcIXZLP8auz1dWmcKKWZfFkK5Dmgnf6H2H4QT4wM8xBHCS k1LHApo4Sx9F0wdSB5VVUVvGQyh4uJ.CQIQdvMwtXUW365h_5CLWnOhC0gdcnelsBhb3zQjupeDN P2YvC11gJRraMQZnuLXRNAyKQDWxkld4al7cYXpA5kRcO5Z.Z9xBBAEyddXd2MPa8TpQqK4Rmv23 1_uISH74xUaV1Y.Z1ShL9MG0Zt_xC3RDe9R_QA9VJQ44pfSUeUWvBjFTL6fNWmqPglj23_BAjeNB Xx5Dxj1kMzW_8H5tCUI5.1ZvhhjQXRtvdmYY0Cz4nlbNpg7.uulzH8Hx3Tq41z1npahfJm00_RyW GY56igFA99zblrTFEGX.uPvkj7JtV3xVEr_jQQPN0KJEYJ8cXfMCu6Yl8fyuEXyFGMobfWvv6v1q fwGMmYPL6M_J32z5oaEVHk7bsjbDhHcDCOQRA5yPmQ2OpvqyyrDMg4KASyNWOMzgKp2YUjb82F9O Q5mzn8aznKBe_e9M98IC5LUdHbO2XcNgoCHOhmHec6TzNQMASiXyCl3Qws3cuCiEFHmqF_Oh91dF DM5QzqcbzRdAXWubOsfdDEAt5VgEn5OSmDMpltTkwLfNBqgO2Q_LU2rjt4KQP1r.g349mlHENkS5 AxVBOPy9_x0N0EeVu2A9jT612DWraZaDjVlmSRwkbGqSRBp07NgTNXFnBD9OhIPzhWz2svQ0LQc_ rKVyLQFLpSlFC_3rlaNZQGtylv6u_B8_o9tQse9D9RV5t8ZLOMIqRT4r2KE471LTFKH.LY4.iAY0 ua8SuIc36WADkNh4byqjTjzt8PyvRBmIHo_yTdVWt.Vx8PdKjkN9jsZSqrgqVkghqKOMGiizFiJI IwyhXYQJB3_Lxu1zIZGaFHbIV3XBRjgM05RKIR8zb8HrKBOiWE41_jXdjLDnndpw1g9p7ZYSf7Er CkaiIcFHXFHWxyEuHNZawEp8nql1pYZb2Dg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:10:15 +0000 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:10:12 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <1569530442.445768.1567260612182@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] The Story of an unecessary rebuild MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_445767_143456218.1567260612179" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.14303 aolloki Apache-HttpClient/4.5.7 (Java/1.8.0_144) Content-Length: 20957 ------=_Part_445767_143456218.1567260612179 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is called "Marvel Mystery Oil" because the people that make it don't kno= w what it is either. Best for cleaning tools that might rust, or that tough grease removing prob= lem. Dying compression is the usual cause for a "no hot start".....Spinning the = engine faster allows less time for compression to leak away and you get a s= tart. In the car always park on a hill. In the race car with a junk yard en= gine, we towed it a few feet and got a start. If towing was not available 1= /2 cup of oil and 1/2 cup of hot coffee in each side of the Weber 48 IDA in= cold weather, and I got a start. People would stand in close to see it hap= pen. What? You don't pour coffee in your engine? The coffee is to add heat and take up volume. Added compression ratio. The = oil is to seal the engine for a few revolutions. If this problem came on over time, I would not suspect an electrical fault.= In the compression measurement you say 20 pounds American?=C2=A0 Under 100= pounds is not acceptable. You say the new engine is tight?=C2=A0 Take it apart now.=C2=A0 You should = be able to turn it over with one hand on the front of the crank all the way= through the build up with the plugs out. For solid apex seals you must mea= sure the housing width and check the apex seal length so as to get .001" fo= r ceramic seals and .0015" for carbon seals. Ceramics only for turbo engine= s. Even two piece stock seals should be super glued end to end while held a= gainst a flat surface and then measured against the housing width. The supe= r glue will fail in the first few revolutions. All of the grooves in the rotors must be clean and shiny in the bottom. A b= it of carbon left behind can bind up a side seal, and make some drag that m= akes a hard spot on the one place, and the seal will break during run in an= d loose compression.=C2=A0 It is possible for a side seal spring to slip ou= t while installing the rotor. A piece breaks off and makes the engine stiff= when turned. Glue everything together with cold wheel bearing grease durin= g assembly. With just assembly oil, a new engine should start in a few revolutions. Aft= er break-in, near instant starts even hot.=20 Racing Beat used extra premix oil in turbo engines. Sounds good to me. I install side seals with zero end gap. They wear in quickly and some clear= ance develops in the first few hours. I use Texaco fleet 30 weight conventi= onal oil for break-in. then 2 hours at 2000 RPM then a few easy laps with l= ow loads. Then dump the fleet oil and fill with a straight weight racing sy= nthetic. A must for lubricating a turbocharger. Ready for a race season shi= fting at 9,600 RPM. Remember the oil scraper springs are HANDED. Fronts and rears cannot be mix= ed. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 8/31/2019 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes: Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.=C2=A0 Please! It started about a year ago.=C2=A0 I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Tu= rbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.=C2=A0 One day I flew to Ramona to meet= up with my formation flying buddies.=C2=A0 After the brief we went to star= t our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.=C2= =A0 It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.=C2= =A0 After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.=C2=A0 I fle= w home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.=C2=A0 I use = Tracys EC2. But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-wa= rmed, starting fine when cold.=C2=A0 Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas= stop until the engine cooled.=C2=A0 While in a safe place I tested air sta= rts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back = on with the prop spinning. Then it started doing something else strange.=C2=A0 After starting it would= run really rough=C2=A0 whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or = so.=C2=A0 By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle b= y sagging and occasionally backfire.=C2=A0 If I had been cranking for a lon= g period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run = normally. I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No im= proveement) So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltag= e was dropping with cranking or somethng.=C2=A0 I got interested in Li Ion = batteries and splurged on the Big one.=C2=A0 It increased my total enerrgy = storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.=C2=A0 Expensive but worth = it considering they are also supposed to last longer. But it turns out the old battery was fine after.=C2=A0 Not only did it not = solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster ch= arge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, maki= ng the problem worse. Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of = 2-stroke oil and or MMO.=C2=A0 So I finally grounded it. My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to = the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning re= ally fast.=C2=A0 Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator = made the condition worse.=C2=A0 And when it was hot the rotor housings expa= nded just enough to really kill the compression.=C2=A0 The side iron plates= in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time = in an RX7.=C2=A0 Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what that= s worth.=C2=A0 Time for a rebuild. I went all out.=C2=A0 All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-ri= ngs and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.=C2=A0 (fittings, etc...= , EGR passages pluged)=C2=A0 I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil har= ness. And?=C2=A0 Nothing.=C2=A0 Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.= =C2=A0 All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.=C2=A0 Tried= a different CAS just for kicks.=C2=A0 The engine is a little tight because= it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, pe= rhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on.. Jump in here anytime. You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep = cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.=C2= =A0 This talk has been really helpful for me. Dave Leonard(the forever optimist)Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-= stroke oil without MMO.=C2=A0 The new engine will never know how good it ha= s it. On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine=E2=80=A6. While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi = tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant ex= pansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Man= aged to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I f= eel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need= to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let t= he heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes afte= r shutdown* I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warp= ed. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods= , to see if I need to change anything or add/remove. 25hours, 99% ground testing The iron plates were lapped and renitraded=20 Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) Oil ~125psi at full throttle 20w50 VR1 high zinc RX7 rear pressure regulator 2 washers under front pressure regulator weber jet kit thermal pellet Coolant 1.3bar cap ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of nois= e at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached) 70/30 Zerex G-05 =C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water= jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/s= tore/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html - Matt Boiteau-- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyro= tary/List.html ------=_Part_445767_143456218.1567260612179 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is called "Marvel Mystery Oil" because the people = that make it don't know what it is either.

Best for cleaning tools that might rust, or that toug= h grease removing problem.

Dying compression is the usual cause for a "no hot st= art".....Spinning the engine faster allows less time for compression to lea= k away and you get a start. In the car always park on a hill. In the race c= ar with a junk yard engine, we towed it a few feet and got a start. If towi= ng was not available 1/2 cup of oil and 1/2 cup of hot coffee in each side = of the Weber 48 IDA in cold weather, and I got a start. People would stand = in close to see it happen. What? You don't pour coffee in your engine?

The coffee is to add heat and take up volume. Added c= ompression ratio. The oil is to seal the engine for a few revolutions.
<= /span>

If this problem came on over time, I would not suspec= t an electrical fault. In the compression measurement you say 20 pounds Ame= rican?  Under 100 pounds is not acceptable.

You say the new engine is tight?  Take it apart = now.  You should be able to turn it over with one hand on the front of= the crank all the way through the build up with the plugs out. For solid a= pex seals you must measure the housing width and check the apex seal length= so as to get .001" for ceramic seals and .0015" for carbon seals. Ceramics= only for turbo engines. Even two piece stock seals should be super glued e= nd to end while held against a flat surface and then measured against the h= ousing width. The super glue will fail in the first few revolutions.=

All of the grooves in the rotors must be clean and sh= iny in the bottom. A bit of carbon left behind can bind up a side seal, and= make some drag that makes a hard spot on the one place, and the seal will = break during run in and loose compression.  It is possible for a side = seal spring to slip out while installing the rotor. A piece breaks off and = makes the engine stiff when turned. Glue everything together with cold whee= l bearing grease during assembly.

With just assembly oil, a new engine should start in = a few revolutions. After break-in, near instant starts even hot.

Racing Beat used extra premix oil in turbo engines. S= ounds good to me.

I install side seals with zero end gap. They wear in = quickly and some clearance develops in the first few hours. I use Texaco fl= eet 30 weight conventional oil for break-in. then 2 hours at 2000 RPM then = a few easy laps with low loads. Then dump the fleet oil and fill with a str= aight weight racing synthetic. A must for lubricating a turbocharger. Ready= for a race season shifting at 9,600 RPM.

Remember the oil scraper springs are HANDED. Fronts a= nd rears cannot be mixed.

Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 8/31/2019 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes:

Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.  Please!

It started about a year ago.  I was putting a lot of hours on N4V= Y (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.  One day I flew to Ramona to= meet up with my formation flying buddies.  After the brief we went to= start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the fligh= t.  It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.=   After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.  I = flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.  I u= se Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when p= re-warmed, starting fine when cold.  Sometimes leaving me stranded at = a gas stop until the engine cooled.  While in a safe place I tested ai= r starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps = back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.  After starting it = would run really rough  whenever the alternator output got above 55amp= s or so.  By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throt= tle by sagging and occasionally backfire.  If I had been cranking for = a long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to= run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (= No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the v= oltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.  I got interested in Li= Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.  It increased my total ene= rrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.  Expensive but w= orth it considering they are also supposed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.  Not only did it= not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much fast= er charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start,= making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement.

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixture= s of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.  So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggrade= d to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turni= ng really fast.  Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the altern= ator made the condition worse.  And when it was hot the rotor housings= expanded just enough to really kill the compression.  The side iron p= lates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown = time in an RX7.  Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what= thats worth.  Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.  All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs,= o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.  (fittings, e= tc..., EGR passages pluged)  I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coi= l harness.

And?  Nothing.  Fuel flow and injector gross function verifi= ed.  All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.  Tr= ied a different CAS just for kicks.  The engine is a little tight beca= use it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set,= perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and = keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.=  

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO. = The new engine will never know how good it has it.



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10= :18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a snag on= my RX8 engine….
While trying different things to cool down the o= il, during high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear = level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which= caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a wate= r hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked underneath the fibergla= ss cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after shut= down or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan t= hat runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of co= olant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warped. Going to take apart next = weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods, to see if I need to change = anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plat= es were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-P= orts
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~12= 5psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator=
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pe= llet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU= says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of noise a= t full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

 

I’ll order the Atkins oring kit, = supposedly their brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher tem= ps. https://www.atkinsro= tary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and= UnSub:   http://mail.l= ancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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