X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=7kORCigVA/YmUP8X6XShkA==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=dN3GemxkeawA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=x-75qrxFAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=CjseBT1Wx-uzr2Se10sA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4hVreLlt7OsA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=K_Pv9SaLS-kA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=26ddCeHGMDj7Ikw0mHUA:9 a=s1cbXjrq8VzwfXUd:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=pSfGKr4syse1NfsQC3dY:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" Received: from sonic308-1.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.130.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12910870 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 09:01:14 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.130.40; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1567256457; bh=TahXDrDeEoYn8VO/LzjgYfW4TbKOnaLceIN5LQjeKxw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=HbiEdUY1xg9RtBe9mVROU8CZ2OSUJEhc0jzfyvIgNdNnkp3mcfwk1MXwx/Sl4rIzRVcCvY+TPm/eLfzHOX8tEWyFz+vLyLGo+Je6thuTWagRKqMn24IFI5nxan2j0ZeW1XrO3jxazFLRbYWc0VLF/9v7t6fVYTN2ZfSntdahFbmkFg3QQZP27kLTVh+Ymq6hBG9BilyGbitFZHnW/9JQ5M5BlfG9PeyPLYewhjeJR1Vm+ew/GnQw7m6I1ClKuMQdsbQVsDAJfVbRc2gDhwWqDrjNM6p2H2Fd0jBp3e4k7qRbN1Oa5YUkxCNxzZ30JqPZ+kpMOnE75JvJKpNMJP4zDA== X-YMail-OSG: rtPjXX8VM1krVmQOQj48ICX4a9w_K2bMjy5blcv8BoIS6lbxYHrkBmFpnII2JiO SpdjogZu28Y.alGqToYCfsnCC2Iuh7ypr_2vV0GG1N9Qxzb7.AZpf3t6t_lNlsP4b6oTa21erv.a haXdssLTZxMMwhk0SiNmneTUpZrgBBb6mNNdoL4VF3TeE75husak66n8rwD7OR.yVRmK..hJE08W rET8Nw3taVT0GJtqsfHknmcrxRmaNe9Vki5_cUBt.CyH0zSHbQLwsR3frY6IH960J7eVHaKODGtx c7JaCd83zZjEwHFtxP5Skpb9tbqomg6ughb78Tzoc_ylzwRPb.qz5bOYVOcybNv1GPhhct63YNle ipPxCNddA8LRjti34YLYl2AV2oewB3BPSfFKoDHUUMTwgmQn0BNi30WvWO.BMO_u4jyv5PPpgn6w lwsm7M.jlR2RvAy80XSVYLLrqa0aXZBvDaPSpGZ6eHKXhMxslUkbt6R36V2pgV8dPhcWkzZwhgsF nruGeo4RSfB.8Z3e_JMZi5k8eAbjicp0n3UjlcDCTAcUbAjFNVl6Hx4aXU2zhIwHpqUmvdxTLPnj v4nnoNGsSETpKKmDNg8A0pNoe42qiP.kxsW_0gil3hU8vxviL._90zokH2wSWiZMjkAmPp7b6j62 JCh12Sbd0nbtCf1FTs2cgDmVkb53C2jp_fm9BPFpeUv7NUfln4HMEDs0xQpm3.unmFMoWMADHjh2 99dmU2YxuQ_Uk1qyorGfo.yREqDZP.dH8F7Q3uA2FsLV4uGWf2Ih6DYDpsHfNjsHAGh5KZ29qHxs MtXnbKCsZiT_ZGph.sh8lOaY2JBqFr5TQh7Qs383eVzeVaVZzdUrZiFnbXFK3YpyiYwfih84UONW 9TPGU6pFvyrJ0uxLkAWM5j5KUeU7Y5ADzIKtZQIPcojNFl1nOLK0UDWkqQkq8AysqoZPtYNfRevO pqG785z.a7W9VSsrvaNCfU7D6blBMK2Xw3wGHwusvLD_MRih3TJkjAiAvlMrWCxvPAeqWc2wpS08 1sL67rw2BmPbNwFngHXoq0gpVtTgSf4rnVzUTW5Aawg8gTmOnaRPZv6jNfBp7JvcjM0t7Hh5jw4s FXzpaU_HgzsRxlh_N__OJiykTz4PM8aGuGd2BIzFWzpBuANGUIQ7YDWoCwOmg1UP7MhlLsX4mlOX B0661RCah00r8fbMTuCZPV5t2v0bdGKT0jO5GhxI7TLwpuJ_S82sx9OvLVZ_f_7Ig9kuT7O10c3J qxR3IAz5BPXkysi_DXjFEg6A- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 13:00:57 +0000 Received: by smtp409.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4871efe31dca8ccaf658d91ef570db58; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 13:00:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] The Story of an unecessary rebuild To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <220953b6-50b2-82ac-929c-bf0d873bb5c6@verizon.net> Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 09:00:48 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E502D2C7EEA387D50402B507" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E502D2C7EEA387D50402B507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tried to replace the alternator? Really good ground battery to alternator? Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the EC2? (I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when hot.) You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to heat individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the intermittently bad component. Finn On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: > Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please! > > It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY > (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work. One day I flew to Ramona to > meet up with my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to > start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the > flight.?? It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery > trying. After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.?? I > flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I > use Tracys EC2. > > But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when > pre-warmed, starting fine when cold. Sometimes leaving me stranded at > a gas stop until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested > air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel > pumps back on with the prop spinning. > > Then it started doing something else strange. After starting it would > run really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or > so.?? By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle > by sagging and occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a > long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine > to run normally. > > I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. > (No improveement) > > So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the > voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in > Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total > enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive > but worth it considering they are also supposed to last longer. > > But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it not > solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much > faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on > EVERY start, making the problem worse. > > Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. > > The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer > mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it. > > My thought at this point was that the compression had finally > deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion > unless turning really fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output > of the alternator made the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the > rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill the compression.?? > The side iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight > hours plus unknown time in an RX7. Compression measured mid 20s on > both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time for a rebuild. > > I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, > o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, > etc..., EGR passages pluged) I also replaced the LS1 coils and the > coil harness. > > And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? All > sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a > different CAS just for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it > is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, > perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on.. > > Jump in here anytime. > > > You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and > keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a > break-in. > > This talk has been really helpful for me. > > Dave Leonard > (the forever optimist) > Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? The > new engine will never know how good it has it. > > > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???. > While trying different things to cool down the oil, during > high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear > level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure > loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the > hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got > baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come > up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let > the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 > minutes after shutdown* > > I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons > are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run > by my list of mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove. > > 25hours, 99% ground testing > The iron plates were lapped and renitraded > Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports > RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) > > _Oil > _~125psi at full throttle > 20w50 VR1 high zinc > RX7 rear pressure regulator > 2 washers under front pressure regulator > weber jet kit > thermal pellet > > > _Coolant > _1.3bar cap > ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. > Lots of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached) > 70/30 Zerex G-05 > > I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner > water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. > https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html > > > - Matt Boiteau > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --------------E502D2C7EEA387D50402B507 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Tried to replace the alternator?

Really good ground battery to alternator?

Can you put an oscilloscope one the power to coils and supply line to the EC2?

(I'm thinking noise from alternator. Some bad connection somewhere when hot.)

You know, one way to troubleshoot intermittent electronic failures it to heat individual components up and/or cool down (a lot) until you find the intermittently bad component.

Finn

On 8/31/2019 1:19 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:
Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.?? Please!

It started about a year ago.?? I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.?? One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with my formation flying buddies.?? After the brief we went to start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.?? It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.?? After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.?? I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.?? I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.?? Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.?? While in a safe place I tested air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.?? After starting it would run really rough?? whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.?? By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.?? If I had been cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.?? I got interested in Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.?? It increased my total enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.?? Expensive but worth it considering they are also supposed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.?? Not only did it not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement.

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.?? So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning really fast.?? Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made the condition worse.?? And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill the compression.?? The side iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.?? Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.?? Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.?? All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.?? (fittings, etc..., EGR passages pluged)?? I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness.

And??? Nothing.?? Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.?? All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.?? Tried a different CAS just for kicks.?? The engine is a little tight because it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.????

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.?? The new engine will never know how good it has it.??



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine???.
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

??

I???ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:?? http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:?? ??http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


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