X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=AiqyYAvfA7zNxtRoVfXC+g==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=x-75qrxFAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=vQU-YgmscsZmbau0HuAA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4hVreLlt7OsA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=K_Pv9SaLS-kA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=42oBM74XzA65zzORLjgA:9 a=9_UZrNucnGRra-WG:21 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=pSfGKr4syse1NfsQC3dY:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au" Received: from mail-qk1-f173.google.com ([209.85.222.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12910592 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 07:36:37 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.222.173; envelope-from=andrew@martinag.com.au Received: by mail-qk1-f173.google.com with SMTP id m2so8466452qki.12 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 04:36:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=martinag-com-au.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=l2bUaEADM+tLgfWzDLT93PueJ8jJW8vSg7ZiyigQMsg=; b=nzJGdnrMDBYqZqOq/8tz0c8lzlY01XWF6NlFB/F45iiVxhXXFjvVVkKAQRF0QgEhL3 kMjb+Ly8t/IviYm3KBYIbMxU0PmA9yhvLM8OCSptBGeWCmW/lX1WCihE1fg8g0TAyuCm IwYbGZx0DzrJz+XmFmKIcDWenUO0oVFmiLQThqYK52gsMhBdz+DlHZUzNlgHDV5iosi0 oKOxIVYL3lQWtVUnJCXBHePu2GGp+ggTiHiJNsNo1FTYB9zOY4f/AvQGB95ZNK3u2Sfk gyDpaBPFg5jbncffd2pi4A+QxDMUqpwhF4/yiJjD0G561iyMYZsYIEpTIpfhdvAIx+n+ td8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=l2bUaEADM+tLgfWzDLT93PueJ8jJW8vSg7ZiyigQMsg=; b=S1VAkqDvviq2bYI1tmfVNmkIH06Whih07gEeRSxT3Nseb0XZ+aLMUAiMF8KLRygJ4T USF8//a6OaqG6B4geisfuQ05MG23GQdibJRe4FgHpuVGjdHrXxfD7cDY5LdjzP5/ZKSu zRV32NW9qwN/aPBXCYmxR5OFd4hjh/x+F51jDo3EfMwWPjTkkHu/xLZVFe6DT8bJyscx pZkAQ4DpHCUyMdYhW1j9ZqOyufMYxxyyiGcWJHQ0Z/q/RphMVSxavxZCe4Mi6QtanHgu ktJSZpsjOWcEUfiFPWqUDEgmkelDBbWNBgOkpMStpb55nUw/3PijDiVsnREyPBpn+P6s 2Ogw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUU99Cq369xkv0UbqCd5d/MFQv3f3PlRPJG+B3sviI5SgQUSwyX TxZhveMUlNZohIyjhS3jxWOBb476awt5AnSjVs9FVaU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyt0b6NcWUOoonnp+fty/EMYGqbhsOQKzRWqYH93PaH6XVZpDW1Z/2Ly6hGZ87r5pLx3bAx0bZpKMm4MIZtWvs= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f707:: with SMTP id s7mr19902068qkg.0.1567251379651; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 04:36:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:17:36 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] The Story of an unecessary rebuild To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c21cae0591682582" --000000000000c21cae0591682582 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have managed 1000hrs (congrats, what a great milestone) of starting upto now with the alt turned on during cranking, and now turning it off during cranking allows start, the underlying cause still exists. Its just a soft failure mode. I=E2=80=99d be checking every circuit. On Sat, 31 Aug 2019 at 1:56 pm, Andrew Martin wrote: > Hmmm. Sounds like its acquired some dna from the fairer sex. > > Maybe try separate battery/power supply to EC2 during start. Could be a > nearly bad fuse, switch or breaker. > > On Sat, 31 Aug 2019 at 1:39 pm, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Interject when you figure out my underlying issue. Please! >> >> It started about a year ago. I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turb= o >> rotary RV-6) commuting for work. One day I flew to Ramona to meet up wi= th >> my formation flying buddies. After the brief we went to start our plane= s >> but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight. It would cr= ank >> and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying. After recharging fo= r a >> couple hours it started up normally. I flew home and wrote it off as so= me >> sort of start procedure SNAFU. I use Tracys EC2. >> >> But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when >> pre-warmed, starting fine when cold. Sometimes leaving me stranded at a >> gas stop until the engine cooled. While in a safe place I tested air >> starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps >> back on with the prop spinning. >> >> Then it started doing something else strange. After starting it would >> run really rough whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so. >> By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by saggi= ng >> and occasionally backfire. If I had been cranking for a long period it >> could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally. >> >> I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No >> improveement) >> >> So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the >> voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng. I got interested in Li = Ion >> batteries and splurged on the Big one. It increased my total enerrgy >> storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#. Expensive but worth it >> considering they are also supposed to last longer. >> >> But it turns out the old battery was fine after. Not only did it not >> solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster >> charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, >> making the problem worse. >> >> Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. >> >> The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures >> of 2-stroke oil and or MMO. So I finally grounded it. >> >> My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded >> to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turn= ing >> really fast. Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator >> made the condition worse. And when it was hot the rotor housings expand= ed >> just enough to really kill the compression. The side iron plates in tha= t >> engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an >> RX7. Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth. >> Time for a rebuild. >> >> I went all out. All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-ring= s >> and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts. (fittings, etc..., EGR >> passages pluged) I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness. >> >> And? Nothing. Fuel flow and injector gross function verified. All >> sparks verified during cranking with a timing light. Tried a different = CAS >> just for kicks. The engine is a little tight because it is new, >> compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the >> apex seal little bits are still glued on.. >> >> Jump in here anytime. >> >> >> You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and >> keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a >> break-in. >> >> This talk has been really helpful for me. >> >> Dave Leonard >> (the forever optimist) >> Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO. The ne= w >> engine will never know how good it has it. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine=E2=80=A6. >>> While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed >>> taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my >>> coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to >>> overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on = the >>> rads, but I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. >>> *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown = or >>> something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that = runs >>> for 5 minutes after shutdown* >>> >>> I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are >>> warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list= of >>> mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove. >>> >>> 25hours, 99% ground testing >>> The iron plates were lapped and renitraded >>> Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports >>> RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) >>> >>> >>> *Oil *~125psi at full throttle >>> 20w50 VR1 high zinc >>> RX7 rear pressure regulator >>> 2 washers under front pressure regulator >>> weber jet kit >>> thermal pellet >>> >>> >>> >>> *Coolant *1.3bar cap >>> ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of >>> noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached) >>> 70/30 Zerex G-05 >>> >>> >>> >>> I=E2=80=99ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner w= ater >>> jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. >>> https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html >>> >>> - Matt Boiteau >>> >> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> -- > Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag > --=20 Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag --000000000000c21cae0591682582 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you have managed 1000hrs (congrats, what a great = milestone) of starting upto now with the alt turned on during cranking, and= now turning it off during cranking allows start, the underlying cause stil= l exists. Its just a soft failure mode. I=E2=80=99d be checking every circu= it.

On Sat, 31 Aug 2019 at 1:56 pm, Andrew Martin <andrew@martinag.com.au> wrote:
Hmmm. Sounds l= ike its acquired some dna from the fairer sex.

Maybe try separate battery/power supply to EC2= during start. Could be a nearly bad fuse, switch or breaker.
On Sat, 3= 1 Aug 2019 at 1:39 pm, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wr= ote:
Interject wh= en you figure out my underlying issue.=C2=A0 Please!

<= /div>
It started about a year ago.=C2=A0 I was putting a l= ot of hours on N4VY (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.=C2=A0 One day I= flew to Ramona to meet up with my formation flying buddies.=C2=A0 After th= e brief we went to start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had t= o bow out of the flight.=C2=A0 It would crank and almost catch, but I wore = out my battery trying.=C2=A0 After recharging for a couple hours it started= up normally.=C2=A0 I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start proc= edure SNAFU.=C2=A0 I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult start= s when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.=C2=A0 Sometimes leaving me stra= nded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.=C2=A0 While in a safe place I t= ested air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fue= l pumps back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.=C2=A0 After s= tarting it would run really rough=C2=A0 whenever the alternator output got = above 55amps or so.=C2=A0 By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancin= g the throttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.=C2=A0 If I had been cr= anking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and th= e engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No = improveement)

So then I = replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltage was drop= ping with cranking or somethng.=C2=A0 I got interested in Li Ion batteries = and splurged on the Big one.=C2=A0 It increased my total enerrgy storage, C= CAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.=C2=A0 Expensive but worth it conside= ring they are also supposed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.=C2=A0 = Not only did it not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can t= ake a much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly = on EVERY start, making the problem worse.

=
Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement= .

The condition continue= d to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MM= O.=C2=A0 So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally de= ggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless= turning really fast.=C2=A0 Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the = alternator made the condition worse.=C2=A0 And when it was hot the rotor ho= usings expanded just enough to really kill the compression.=C2=A0 The side = iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus un= known time in an RX7.=C2=A0 Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, fo= r what thats worth.=C2=A0 Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.=C2=A0 All new rotor and side housings= , seals, springs, o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.= =C2=A0 (fittings, etc..., EGR passages pluged)=C2=A0 I also replaced the LS= 1 coils and the coil harness.

And?=C2=A0 Nothing.=C2=A0 Fuel flow and injector gross function verif= ied.=C2=A0 All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.=C2=A0 T= ried a different CAS just for kicks.=C2=A0 The engine is a little tight bec= ause it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set= , perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You ar= e right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep cranking until i= t finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.=C2=A0=C2=A0

This talk has been really helpfu= l for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also go= ing to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.=C2=A0 The new eng= ine will never know how good it has it.=C2=A0



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau= mattboiteau@gma= il.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a= snag on my RX8 engine=E2=80=A6.
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but = I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, nee= d to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let the h= eat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdo= wn*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warp= ed. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods, to= see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of nois= e at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly = their brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-= Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boit= eau
--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0= http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
--
Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
--
Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
--000000000000c21cae0591682582--