X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=auZFhOzWS5H0Xlzol9Q3ww==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=x-75qrxFAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=v205wOq7ptSHgIr8gn4A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4hVreLlt7OsA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=K_Pv9SaLS-kA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=oedVyoP4d7GxjtLNYpoA:9 a=Y_fNwExEgR6P-8Vs:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=pSfGKr4syse1NfsQC3dY:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pf1-f182.google.com ([209.85.210.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12910305 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 03:15:26 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.182; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf1-f182.google.com with SMTP id w26so5974523pfq.12 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 00:15:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=DkwoaD46GFmkUARALshJLn0LEq5vRs4SEUOKCAdAMLs=; b=aABhJQbyCnthQ1R3slMuScBJP9UnvwEoI/HTOMF9GPPlnk2sslNWVUwPtlg1Sf9WZ1 QLLC5cECG2GTbjgJ/6DOadSl7WwSNDATXboYdn8inhhKe2gBEhHxo9wU9Ovf8qp6UODg woThek0RStTVkfdCmUsD7i3v+M04yFPA2SkS1E94f4O+rCnE2RpbA8PYcEkDhSJMaRm3 kMSu3BN4u3hmQ1RqT9IPQG9Y6+nuSy2DLt4cnPTXC5VZcV18qpO9vI1IM0Ss1Mo5r9gs kx21a7MOkqkg0+AHxuFTPC8I+JzrSn/7F9fpkXjoGTOLDYw1lHsZuhPKUkaIbf1PFtZU GKQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=DkwoaD46GFmkUARALshJLn0LEq5vRs4SEUOKCAdAMLs=; b=cobJPF6RUURihKqhuE0P2dDty84iNpOYG9h8XCCWmiyyTtyk0ciqPQelf8+aUlXEy4 dLpXv8nio+A9tytpshr0VBydDrP7VXhHI0dOMvw038mW8NTbc5x/xBnrpntrXZ+S6HGo okADv6abXZrJPcs07V9dECp8n2wje7hlAlYoTjmIKCfQEqCLndtaV79tyJohUuf/ceyK qvv/0r6+dmTc7AslIpfZDVvMQleoiOEdWlaOyz26At4gMz0cbtZ9CMJiL9z5TKwJcxhZ 50QOoYtOOAgQHb8T0aW0nZFnzGXdwiIiVgfza6IXmsUga7gbMF4AE5p7GZpRUCBZYdN1 +DUA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVcESINGRzC79S1LP4Szg7MPZUbyP7U/RHkEZED0lxCUnQREJRo z641r5Vj7jsXxSjrsvzm/atbsQ72 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxYb9aZRsbMONw2kI4UmgPF7vdgB0tzHq3AXi9o9H1tewhSUydp6RTEnZimPH8rql3mYnOUEA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:db0d:: with SMTP id g13mr2584177pjv.51.1567235710763; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 00:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.0.106] ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l3sm7774650pjq.18.2019.08.31.00.15.09 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 31 Aug 2019 00:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <84ea17fe-d339-1848-e2a9-78c6fb0cbfe9@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 17:15:06 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------55F943DD5A76F40C44C382AD" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------55F943DD5A76F40C44C382AD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave,                  beats me????    It sounds like electrical, but what?     Meanwhile Mine runs fine! On 8/31/2019 3:56 PM, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au wrote: > Hmmm. Sounds like its acquired some dna from the fairer sex. > > Maybe try separate battery/power supply to EC2 during start. Could be > a nearly bad fuse, switch or breaker. > > On Sat, 31 Aug 2019 at 1:39 pm, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.  Please! > > It started about a year ago.  I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY > (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.  One day I flew to Ramona > to meet up with my formation flying buddies.  After the brief we > went to start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow > out of the flight.  It would crank and almost catch, but I wore > out my battery trying.  After recharging for a couple hours it > started up normally.  I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of > start procedure SNAFU.  I use Tracys EC2. > > But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts > when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.  Sometimes leaving me > stranded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.  While in a safe > place I tested air starts and there seemed to be no issue there > just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinning. > > Then it started doing something else strange.  After starting it > would run really rough whenever the alternator output got above > 55amps or so. By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing > the throttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.  If I had been > cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to > drop and the engine to run normally. > > I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark > plugs. (No improveement) > > So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe > the voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.  I got > interested in Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.  It > increased my total enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by > over 10#.  Expensive but worth it considering they are also > supposed to last longer. > > But it turns out the old battery was fine after.  Not only did it > not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a > much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least > briefly on EVERY start, making the problem worse. > > Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. > > The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer > mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.  So I finally grounded it. > > My thought at this point was that the compression had finally > deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for > combustion unless turning really fast.  Perhaps the extra drag > from full output of the alternator made the condition worse.  And > when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really > kill the compression.  The side iron plates in that engine had the > better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.  > Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats > worth.  Time for a rebuild. > > I went all out.  All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, > o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.  > (fittings, etc..., EGR passages pluged)  I also replaced the LS1 > coils and the coil harness. > > And?  Nothing.  Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.  > All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.  Tried a > different CAS just for kicks.  The engine is a little tight > because it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals > have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on.. > > Jump in here anytime. > > > You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator > and keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit > of a break-in. > > This talk has been really helpful for me. > > Dave Leonard > (the forever optimist) > Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.  > The new engine will never know how good it has it. > > > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine…. > While trying different things to cool down the oil, during > high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary > clear level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to > pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut > down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I > feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. > *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after > shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even > an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown* > > I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the > irons are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just > wanted to run by my list of mods, to see if I need to change > anything or add/remove. > > 25hours, 99% ground testing > The iron plates were lapped and renitraded > Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports > RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) > > _Oil > _~125psi at full throttle > 20w50 VR1 high zinc > RX7 rear pressure regulator > 2 washers under front pressure regulator > weber jet kit > thermal pellet > > > _Coolant > _1.3bar cap > ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. > Lots of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic > attached) > 70/30 Zerex G-05 > > I’ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner > water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. > https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html > > > - Matt Boiteau > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag --------------55F943DD5A76F40C44C382AD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dave,

                 beats me????    It sounds like electrical, but what?     Meanwhile Mine runs fine!  

On 8/31/2019 3:56 PM, Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au wrote:
Hmmm. Sounds like its acquired some dna from the fairer sex.

Maybe try separate battery/power supply to EC2 during start. Could be a nearly bad fuse, switch or breaker.

On Sat, 31 Aug 2019 at 1:39 pm, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.  Please!

It started about a year ago.  I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.  One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with my formation flying buddies.  After the brief we went to start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.  It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.  After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.  I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.  I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.  Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.  While in a safe place I tested air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.  After starting it would run really rough  whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.  By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.  If I had been cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.  I got interested in Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.  It increased my total enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.  Expensive but worth it considering they are also supposed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.  Not only did it not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement.

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.  So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning really fast.  Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made the condition worse.  And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill the compression.  The side iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.  Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.  Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.  All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.  (fittings, etc..., EGR passages pluged)  I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness.

And?  Nothing.  Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.  All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.  Tried a different CAS just for kicks.  The engine is a little tight because it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.  

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.  The new engine will never know how good it has it. 



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine….
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

 

I’ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
--
Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag
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