X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Ifz5plia c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=gTgBEJriY5Vot0Yhb3gGRA==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=JoQWYm39AAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=PGU6Lyq_00mQ-kTU5yYA:9 a=eXtZWc9LeJb2Hc-h:21 a=6cxwYzmeIzwVCg7H:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=8FZdfCiPuHDf_uemOlwA:9 a=xm1Y0F96XcHtUuzX:21 a=Q1SWqzwmNqAhnlCM:21 a=X7YP1so-ZrEHvVMo:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f48.google.com ([209.85.208.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12890108 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:54:16 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.48; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f48.google.com with SMTP id m44so29689073edd.9 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 22:54:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=S1q+3OqGaUswUXNtL9XbtkumUDPrBo6JHLQ4zpxfelA=; b=vN1U6LikyPC8Teu0uDXetfwKxYNrp7D4T4L7nbcFdybtPVR6HlmBJofrcX5aWpL7pM GD3lOr6bS0gCM0G5tAzMVRbxWwQjvRg+m5qf69nqRejoJbk5X4DcBW0kNeSoE5jlRJYE kwAsl+ldO26yLPcbTDaPz6qXQHiBIGFdmep/hzdVN2L9d6Q9QJvwl5+U2P2bwA6P74Cr OhCh3TMa5Bd8W4wr2fPLltrwYaTN6V/F8qJ9q5aA+7+yRURk85f8/zITrZQEki8Ps8xJ yPwbHIqmZErIHlfVVA+IxOnEqsVXKN+xW2PWDhr2Ghq8FBLTRs/AP0j63x3Z1WrwG8G8 +kqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=S1q+3OqGaUswUXNtL9XbtkumUDPrBo6JHLQ4zpxfelA=; b=Ry67E6ZbbbDI73RPnjcuiXb9qHTG2Z5VuBxyy8vgXmaR9Fy+zpnoO5W5scro8SpC6+ rFsIDVTLEnpgRDkNR9ys08S7I4xcvJDSr7VSbKd5fyevsc/oRsJey1lmWJ0JFYonjtBA l+fF4Krpeol13WhXPtM3npAc64aOOkEUfS3cpTaKC5F+srNau5LGDgZMSOqywPUeSOa0 1mIajXO2Az+Ljki4JtLci+tu0WHIqW1uQEL/wwfqZDP/66sMKvoSoNKjchuyLk2IlBRf 5GMfuQZYeadY3p3b35ZztPoRs0yo1tH1X2HmqO4E+CFYosFwVCWnOEFrWCJxP5TRf39B z+Sw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWHC/pk2mXtbxMNrM6Fy835rjQ4CbQ2YwVGoJL+FKfqpYywiCqS avXojzTmYBXsTVBbOBwOHHOp1Qwn/rmOB/jLUg9pkHk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyquSmClpiqwld1Nlfvbj8t1SrS0rLqT/SSONVoDO6lypU4ydx+9n09TsZV4XiYrtaFR6vf9bpleFWBF23XvTo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:bceb:: with SMTP id op11mr20296342ejb.2.1566885240714; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 22:54:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 22:53:46 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Curved aluminum radiators To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002d3968059112e663" --0000000000002d3968059112e663 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff, a few years ago I would've agreed that would be better for slower "bush" planes but not for me... but now I'm getting pretty convinced that any extra drag at top speed isn't really important to me anymore. As far as the Powersport install, I may be completely mistaken here, but I thought the fatal crash that ended the program was due to a burst setrab oil cooler. Don't have much time here tonight (just recovering/cleaning up from hosting a wedding on my property this past weekend), so I don't have time to confirm what actually happened by searching the archives, but I do recall we discussed it at length. Does anybody have any pictures of their installation? My rads were originally plumbed in parallel, but when I brought it back to the airport last year, I had them plumbed in series. This spring I switched them back to a parallel arrangement, due to the fact that when the engine was off but the EWP was running so there was no pressure in the system, then the outlet hose from the rad would collapse, due to the suction of the pump and the restriction of the rads. When the engine is running and the system is under pressure then the hose does not do this, but it does indicate an excessive restriction to flow. But as a parallel install , with the engine off/no coolant pressure, there is still a slight, but not complete collapse of the hose. It hasn't seem to make a real big difference in my overall temps, but I did see a much bigger deltaT across the 2 rads in series at the expense of less flow. But the biggest advantage to a series install would have to be simpler, lighter plumbing arrangement. So depending on what I find with experimenting with this curved Ninja radiator, I'm hoping to put them in series if they are not too restrictive. Todd Bartrim On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 1:50 PM William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Guys, I mentioned the curved radiators because some cowl contours will > work with them. Note also that the original Powersport team came up with = a > excellent layout. 3 setrab type coolers in a splayed U. Tipped up just a > little one cooler for oil at the bottom with two water radiators on the > sides V=E2=80=99ed into the flat cooler on the bottom. All 3 are edge to = the > firewall. The baffling is at the front of the rads. Over all the cowl wit= h > the area between the rads open. Very little ducting is needed. The air > flows into the center, out through the coolers, and out the bottom of the > cowl in the standard position. This system needs a swirl pot to recombine > the two water radiators. Run those parallel. This system was the last fro= m > the original Powersport and worked great. > Bill Jepson > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 7:21 AM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> I use three 44 tube SETRABS. Two in the scavenge loop and one in the >> pressure loop. Under 200 degrees on a hot day. Sorry about the picture >> quality. Lynn E. Hanover >> >> In a message dated 8/26/2019 8:20:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >> >> Todd, just catching up on the blog after a week of vacation ... my main >> thought is that doubling your Surface AREA will have far more positive >> affect than the negative effects of halving your CUBIC area ... cubic >> inches of radiator is misleading - surface area is far more important. >> Jeff >> >> I'm considering making some changes to my cooling system as it is not >> adequate when flying low & slow, as on recent flights on a few hot days. >> I'm still using a set of evap cores as they fit the limited space on eit= her >> side of the PSRU in an RV cowl. >> Bill Jepson made mention of a curved radiator earlier this summer, >> which has been simmering on a hot spot way back in my brain ever since. >> I've spent the last few days looking real hard at the idea. >> The size and shape of the curve looks like it would conform quite nicely >> to the bottom of the RV cowl. so that the top of the rad would be >> perpendicular to the airflow while the bottom will curve away. This woul= d >> require a new ducts to be glassed to take advantage of this, but that wo= uld >> allow for more time and room to slow down the airflow for greater >> efficiency. It would also almost double the square inches of cooling are= a >> than I currently have, however as it is thinner it would provide half of >> the cubic inches of volume as I currently have. >> The small thick rads I currently use were chosen more with high speeds i= n >> mind (well, and of course ease of installation), but now I'm thinking th= at >> I'd rather have a thinner rad that would perform better on the ground an= d >> in slow flight. These curved rads seem like they could offer some >> advantages. >> I've just found them listed on Amazon.ca for $148CAD with free >> shipping (x2)which seems pretty reasonable, so for $300, it might offer = a >> significant cooling upgrade.... or maybe not. >> I wish I could find an old one to cut open to inspect, test weld, check >> for fit, etc. >> >> Does anybody have any thoughts on the idea? I'm on the edge so it >> wouldn't take much to push me over, or pull me back.... >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > --0000000000002d3968059112e663 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff, a few years ago I would've agreed that would be = better for slower "bush" planes but not for me... but now I'm= getting pretty convinced that any extra drag at top speed isn't really= important to me anymore.
As far as the Powersport install, I may be co= mpletely mistaken here, but I thought the fatal crash that ended the progra= m was due to a burst setrab oil cooler. Don't have much time here tonig= ht (just recovering/cleaning up from hosting a wedding on my property this = past weekend), so I don't have time to confirm what actually happened b= y searching the archives, but I do recall we discussed it at length. Does a= nybody have any pictures of their installation?
My rads were orig= inally plumbed in parallel, but when I brought it back to the airport last = year, I had them plumbed in series. This spring I switched them back to a p= arallel arrangement, due to the fact that when the engine was off but the E= WP was running so there was no pressure in the system, then the outlet hose= from the rad would collapse, due to the suction of the pump and the restri= ction of the rads. When the engine is running and the system is under press= ure then the hose does not do this, but it does indicate an excessive restr= iction to flow. But as a parallel install , with the engine off/no coolant = pressure, there is still a slight, but not complete collapse of the hose. I= t hasn't seem to make a real big difference in my overall temps, but I = did see a much bigger deltaT across the 2 rads in series at the expense of = less flow. But the biggest advantage to a series install would have to be s= impler, lighter plumbing arrangement.
=C2=A0 So depending on what= I find with experimenting with this curved Ninja radiator, I'm hoping = to put them in series if they are not too restrictive.

=
Todd Bartrim


On Mo= n, Aug 26, 2019 at 1:50 PM William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Guys, I mentioned the cur= ved radiators because some cowl contours will work with them. Note also tha= t the original Powersport team came up with a excellent layout. 3 setrab ty= pe coolers in a splayed U. Tipped up just a little one cooler for oil at th= e bottom with two water radiators on the sides V=E2=80=99ed into the flat c= ooler on the bottom. All 3 are edge to the firewall. The baffling is at the= front of the rads. Over all the cowl with the area between the rads open. = Very little ducting is needed. The air flows into the center, out through t= he coolers, and out the bottom of the cowl in the standard position. This s= ystem needs a swirl pot to recombine the two water radiators. Run those par= allel. This system was the last from the original Powersport and worked gre= at.
Bill Jepson=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019= at 7:21 AM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I use three 44 tube SETRABS. Two in the scavenge loop and = one in the pressure loop. Under 200 degrees on a hot day.=C2=A0 Sorry about= the picture quality. Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 8/26/2019 8:20:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net writes:

Todd, just catching up on the blog after a week of vacatio= n ... my main thought is that doubling your Surface AREA will have far more= positive affect than the negative effects of halving your CUBIC area ... c= ubic inches of radiator is misleading - surface area is far more important.=
Jeff

I'm considering making some changes to my cooling syst= em as it is not adequate when flying low & slow, as on recent flights o= n a few hot days. I'm still using a set of evap cores as they fit the l= imited space on either side of the PSRU in an RV cowl.
=C2=A0 Bill Jepson made mention of a curved radiator earli= er this summer, which has been simmering on a hot spot way back in my brain= ever since. I've spent the last few days looking real hard at the idea= .
The size and shape of the curve looks like it would confor= m quite nicely to the bottom of the RV cowl. so that the top of the rad wou= ld be perpendicular to the airflow while the bottom will curve away. This w= ould require a new ducts to be glassed to take advantage of this, but that = would allow for more time and room to slow down the airflow for greater eff= iciency. It would also almost double the square inches of cooling area than= I currently have, however as it is thinner it would provide half of the cu= bic inches of volume as I currently have.
The small thick rads I currently use were chosen more with= high speeds in mind (well, and of course ease of installation), but now I&= #39;m thinking that I'd rather have a thinner rad that would perform be= tter on the ground and in slow flight. These curved rads seem like they cou= ld offer some advantages.
=C2=A0 I've just found them listed on Amazon.ca fo= r $148CAD with free shipping (x2)which seems pretty reasonable, so for $300= , it might offer a significant cooling upgrade.... or maybe not.
I wish I could find an old one to cut open to inspect, tes= t weld, check for fit, etc.

Does anybody have any thoughts on the idea? I'm on the= edge so it wouldn't take much to push me over, or pull me back....

--
--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail= .lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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