X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=BfGBKlfVCZkr1ZEMvOwMnA==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=ad1WmcueCrwA:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=jJrOw3FHAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=p63mWps6jW_sRn74LuEA:9 a=4UP2-rcydZVFA8IX:21 a=Sc9UvFPhA5QuNRI9:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=-FEs8UIgK8oA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=-bVlGd7z9kwrwpoyV-0A:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=A8eXgOlMY9ZhmlFs:21 a=qlZBFJ0CdS7v29fb:21 a=KOpRYOcFZdxahNVi:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=lsIkP6lG2H4f0j7eDx0G:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f46.google.com ([209.85.208.46] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12565246 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 16 May 2019 08:05:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.46; envelope-from=wrjjrs@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f46.google.com with SMTP id f37so4845390edb.13 for ; Thu, 16 May 2019 05:05:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8AYQFxRdIFw7RWuP3SRUU1qtT3EsuofzEUv4md0ZnPk=; b=DdN7QPh/5N6JEEMMtz9dii6XFwGA9f9T22xIGatRiOYTbnmurZqLJlOhr8yh86LMIx /YEFc3vpqdoUQ9L3J3f5JoNkta2UmgWidh4NXPPHSLP+ZCj7wAxG6Lf++ZmLAMYiezpa DufSb+1Enn6cGdjJU2tV0q09mIiuRlh2Tm59lAh1usLcLZPtTVnRxumkoaK1pZp0BpTb u29i6pNIi9JK7O5KOrYYOf00BarEEtdCsDP8WdA60GBKXzJl6BNHQ/olJKC0gA1NwnzV BaNmrAdLItCuueIB7gRh2YdxPE4Q8cOD9kIKKAMAkKQjUJ7B3CpsSH49F5ol4w87x+p2 V3Sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=8AYQFxRdIFw7RWuP3SRUU1qtT3EsuofzEUv4md0ZnPk=; b=qmY2kUtpcWKqrPDJYdNnafi/S9IGNph2cjzyEciXIDQ2kLxe8Mt4b7OvV713iGwkAi goXeKc+GvnLblOQ7bQCY66EkphLPM3mMnOsIYFvDZ9eW+KXleePePTc7yKJf2vATpidR Ky8NyVtLiBrVnLP3EIwNBpMK4Lr+8P/QYwZq8ReRsd+ob0qr5V4+kISaYTqP/7P1D45c MwELDPjRa8ujqjMGRC4wepzQlyFpI0pTbb4pQYeRAdInwiZ0Y3HfHJJAuYgCgqgy1e88 rZBcI9W3t3LjKWUwI5OUmGAHJ5Ez/jyMsZhY7k0+J465qHrmD94tdFv3zNiJpbKLf8qV lpvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWHeygy9LcwxmHOs3Ebp6vn7Nj+WN4XQ5vUGvluwiP4wP7QefMh gUCgwp4JZEgrDvDsrQoY94Lb9fEw3rj3+BDn8H0Toy4J X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqznpeVbjOj/OoioMx1owjRLLyA2U5qWtZh2MpigD4HcFkM/mfXYzJgpqpUM6JUb6PM6lS9EfO9kC5zvFW0O+1c= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:e2c2:: with SMTP id gr2mr38770451ejb.45.1558008300038; Thu, 16 May 2019 05:05:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 20:04:15 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Slide throttle issues with engine dieing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000047ed0805890013b4" --00000000000047ed0805890013b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, I've used smooth bore carburetors, and factory slide throttles. I've never seen one without bearings, or a inlet ramp for small throttle openings. Paul did one that relies on a Teflon =C2=AE slide. Everyone forgets how muc= h pressure is on that plate of plastic. Bill Jepson On Thu, May 16, 2019, 10:39 AM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > The slide throttle is used where the rules allow for only a small intake > runner. No choke area is used so it only works with fuel injection. Also > there is no loss of diameter caused by a throttle shaft. So, the allowed > runner diameter can be used all through the runner. > > Lucas slide valves are expensive but work perfectly. Throttle bodies are > cheap and work well. If you get to maximum RPM before you have full > throttle, after playing with timing and FA ratio then your Throttle body > may be too large. A home made slide throttle is just added complexity > nobody needs, In my opinion. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > In a message dated 5/15/2019 7:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > Matt, > > Oh dear, you also have a slide throttle??? I also put > one on the first attempt linked to a vernier throttle cable. It worked > well if you were content to "wind" the throttle open and shut with the > vernier. However on my teat flight my pilot went to push the throttle op= en > and he nearly ended up in the back seat pushing and could not get the > throttle to budge. Sadly he failed my aircraft, with good cause for the > "what if" was the need for an immediate Go around. just would not be very > instant!!. IN a temper I had to totally redo my throttle assembly. I > ended sending the assembly back to Paul and asked what was wrong that it > refused to "slide": I am still awaiting a reply on the topic. I ended > replacing it with a dual throttle body that sadly did jnot match the hole= s > exactly, so much work went into adapting. It ended up being brilliant -- > will attach a photo if I can find one--- but as always very expensive. H= ad > the injectors and all self contained. > > ON another engine I put a large throttle body which was too big for I got > to full noise at 80% opening. The ideal size for a dingle throttle body > seems to be 70 to 75mm dia. I suggest others chime in here as I am going > from memory which with me is a bad move!!! > > Matt, as sad as it is I really suggest you replace the slide throttle as = a > proper slide throttle as lots of seals and bearings to take the suction, > which again makes them very dear. > > Another option which may not suit is to put dual Rotek carbies on. The= y > are OZ and cost approx $500 USD each --- again my memory!! I am told th= ey > are great value, but you will have to alter fuel pressure to start with = 9% > psi). > > Neil. > On 5/14/2019 3:27 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: > > I have a good one for you guys. I've been trying to get a slide throttle > to work. Lots of fixing to make it usable, mainly at lower RPM when the > suction is at it's highest. Lapped the outer plates flat, machined down t= he > thickness of the inside slide, doubled up all the bolts to seal fuel from > leaking, and stiffened up the throttle cable every few inches. BUT now th= at > I am taxing around, this issue is coming up and I think it has to do with > having the injectors before the slide throttle. I think... > > When I taxi (under 1100rpm prop) and start to step on the brakes, the > engine drops a few hundred RPM and struggles. If I pull power to idle to > slow down before tuning (600rpm prop), the engine will die. Unless I catc= h > it in time, and stab the throttle. The right brake is more pronounced the= n > the left. Even though the wideband is showing a quick lean condition, > I've tried riching up / leaning out the mixture at those lower rpm's to n= o > results. Once I get past 1200rpm prop and the engine is starting to breat= h, > no issues at higher powers. > > So we tried an experiment while idling and shook the plane left/right, it > reproduces the engine dieing. I did see a quick puff of black out the > tailpipe. That make me think at low idle, with the slide opening moves > right to left, the fuel is pooling at the bottom of the opening. The > shaking is causing raw fuel to make it's way in pass the opening. Drilled= a > few small holes at the bottom of the slide to hopefully suck in any raw > fuel that tries to pool. It's helped a tiny bit, but if I shake the intak= e, > the engine still isn't happy at idle. > > I don't have a video of the engine running (will get it tomorrow), but > here's a video of the intake setup. > https://youtu.be/tuwBkDuKh9Q > > I'm tempted to remove the slide throttle and put in a standard 3" > throttle body on my intake box (ie, before injectors). Just want to get > your guy's thoughts if I'm on the right track. And if anybody is running = a > slide throttle.? > > - Matt Boiteau > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > --00000000000047ed0805890013b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn,=C2=A0
I've u= sed smooth bore carburetors, and factory slide throttles. I've never se= en one without bearings, or a inlet ramp for small throttle openings. Paul = did one that relies on a Teflon =C2=AE slide. Everyone forgets how much pre= ssure is on that plate of plastic.=C2=A0

Bill Jepson

On Thu, May 16, 2019, 10:3= 9 AM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The slide throttle is used where the rules allow for only a s= mall intake runner. No choke area is used so it only works with fuel inject= ion. Also there is no loss of diameter caused by a throttle shaft.=C2=A0 So= , the allowed runner diameter can be used all through the runner.

Lucas slide valves are expensive but work perfectly.=C2=A0 Th= rottle bodies are cheap and work well. If you get to maximum RPM before you= have full throttle, after playing with timing and FA ratio then your Throt= tle body may be too large.=C2=A0 A home made slide throttle is just added c= omplexity nobody needs, In my opinion.

Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 5/15/2019 7:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Matt,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Oh dear, you also have a slide throttle???= =C2=A0 I also put one on the first attempt linked to a vernier throttle cab= le.=C2=A0 It worked well if you were content to "wind" the thrott= le open and shut with the vernier.=C2=A0 However on my teat flight my pilot= went to push the throttle open and he nearly ended up in the back seat pus= hing and could not get the throttle to budge.=C2=A0 Sadly he failed my airc= raft, with good cause for the "what if" was the need for an immed= iate Go around. just would not be very instant!!.=C2=A0 IN a temper I had t= o totally redo my throttle assembly.=C2=A0 I ended sending the assembly bac= k to Paul and asked what was wrong that it refused to "slide":=C2= =A0 I am still awaiting a reply on the topic.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I ended replacing= it with a dual throttle body that sadly did jnot match the holes exactly, = so much work went into adapting.=C2=A0 It ended up being brilliant -- will = attach a photo if I can find one--- but as always very expensive.=C2=A0 Had= the injectors and all self contained.

ON another engine I put a large throttle body which was too big for I go= t to full noise at 80% opening.=C2=A0 The ideal size for a dingle throttle = body seems to be 70 to 75mm dia.=C2=A0 I suggest others chime in here as I = am going from memory which with me is a bad move!!!

Matt, as sad as it is I really suggest you replace the slide throttle as= a proper slide throttle as lots of seals and bearings to take the suction,= which again makes them very dear.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0Another option which may not suit is to put dual Rotek=C2=A0 carbi= es on.=C2=A0 They are OZ and cost approx $500 USD each=C2=A0 --- again my m= emory!!=C2=A0 I am told they are great value, but you will have to alter fu= el pressure to start with=C2=A0 9% psi).

Neil.

On 5/14/2019 3:27 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
I have a good one for you guys. I've been trying to= get a slide throttle to work. Lots of fixing to make it usable, mainly at = lower RPM when the suction is at it's highest. Lapped the outer plates = flat, machined down the thickness of the inside slide, doubled up all the b= olts to seal fuel from leaking, and stiffened up the throttle cable every f= ew inches. BUT now that I am taxing around, this issue is coming up and I t= hink it has to do with having the injectors before the slide throttle. I th= ink...

When I taxi (under 1100rpm prop) and start to step on the brakes, the = engine drops a few hundred RPM and struggles. If I pull power to idle to sl= ow down before tuning (600rpm prop), the engine will die. Unless I catch it= in time, and stab the throttle. The right brake is more pronounced then th= e left.=C2=A0Even though the= wideband is showing a quick lean condition, I've tried riching up / le= aning out the mixture at those lower rpm's to no results. Once I get pa= st 1200rpm prop and the engine is starting to breath, no issues at higher p= owers.

So we tried an experiment while idling and shook the plane left/right,= it reproduces the engine dieing. I did see a quick puff of black out the t= ailpipe. That make me think at low idle, with the slide opening moves right= to left, the fuel is pooling at the bottom of the opening. The shaking is = causing raw fuel to make it's way in pass the opening. Drilled a few sm= all holes at the bottom of the slide to hopefully suck in any raw fuel that= tries to pool. It's helped a tiny bit, but if I shake the intake, the = engine still isn't happy at idle.

I don't have a video of th= e engine running (will get it tomorrow), but here's a video of the inta= ke setup.
I'm tempted to remove the slide throttle and put in a=C2=A0standard=C2=A03" throttle body on my intake bo= x (ie, before injectors). Just want to get your guy's thoughts if I'= ;m on the right track. And if anybody is running a slide throttle.?<= /div>

- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://mai= l.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
--00000000000047ed0805890013b4--