X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h/2l+vn1J2DkYOOB9BQDdQ==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=ad1WmcueCrwA:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=jJrOw3FHAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=p63mWps6jW_sRn74LuEA:9 a=YWtzXYlUjSTx2RBX:21 a=mp7XgNqFAyMwWTUi:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=-FEs8UIgK8oA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=NPAr4MJYugUvzf7hFbsA:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=WEQxTUNAfQx-1ZEo:21 a=Ag5HMUApLfEp0b4z:21 a=8wOXSKadKwDU2RTX:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=lsIkP6lG2H4f0j7eDx0G:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f52.google.com ([209.85.208.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12564617 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 May 2019 23:47:02 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.52; envelope-from=wrjjrs@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f52.google.com with SMTP id m4so2978578edd.8 for ; Wed, 15 May 2019 20:47:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=qBmJpWlamSlsVEp9athAYumVCVxlzamQRNGIETS6bys=; b=SIo4bawDbr5mWqPK4zv4z5Z6n5u+exJ0vewfkENuubdJ1Wmu/7Dlqk1wLlPv4l0FtI 2Dji1kMLTgHzNihFabNJLBXEG0mvRdz3G9mh+o9v6mHIBgxl3vuuXhvwRqLA1lukgxkX JuwYLtRB9Vti55QCrtjigFVJDHXMFqPGaHLxziTTMrWu1jjlkWE7Lehte4HEat/7bfEo vJipOU7qu/UJBZ/D4zLfA7Of/wOM2bRIx5i8PxQzkVxNZ30hW0nmwrVhKhmPXw6ee7HP OGYSFk+HQQm3xjJW0Wi9CY0QANM9DuHF2kRIUjaoQuSb+J4k8eZBi4w1l7zMG2ALGiRC BK/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=qBmJpWlamSlsVEp9athAYumVCVxlzamQRNGIETS6bys=; b=PLLjJmdx+MsywOmr6K0HNjLGSJb5o1Id8fk2H9EddUCIYFjOUu1RP0ypnd019BCTxE cVNh6dOtBSZJAUGlGrzo1piZISHtEheDXbQag/coERDmU0DDoVT/6FX5kav0EOmdpTAo /78vthLHmIEriLZPz8R3xHQ5rWvhgH3CFXCUPJjzbxDB2qC1bOK+hQU5AfXRlBIZaPBO iKziiq+7nysfaTrR9wZZfxVC0/c2/llQ2g/UJtCN64m1jwSLYnkwDCqdwBTq57r1HNTJ IJX15bZtLe6iNGtDzzvPWPxuGR3/WHaz5W9RS6mVIJueinIozz3yiBuTeOzMSNk/HHGu nQBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWWsv7tDqKHVRres3n39flRFlWmA8moM5xcfAuuw6ez6KK2KfyU FMk5JH/7YYqzyq2IfTEaxBscYyWSJpVUoFUxGdBZFvpj X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyAUDeXlo7baP9USVhavZApFqFyDOayOt5OTiPUIbuwlvzfDHswt1J8X5n4HV4QTVCKfMfmQcctdm9biebfYc8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:a852:: with SMTP id dx18mr35766872ejb.210.1557978404863; Wed, 15 May 2019 20:46:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 11:46:06 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Slide throttle issues with engine dieing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000063c2a50588f91d51" --00000000000063c2a50588f91d51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, I've used smooth bore carburetors, and factory slide throttles. I've never seen one without bearings, or a inlet ramp for small throttle openings. Paul did one that relies on a Teflon =C2=AE slide. Everyone forgets how muc= h pressure is on that plate of plastic. 87 pounds pressing against the engine side. (At a 2" opening on a 13B) Even the material itself can be pliable at higher temperatures. Note that I didn't say melt, Teflon will take 400=C2= =B0F without melting, but it can deflect under pressure. If you use a 2" bore it may even deflect into the bore when warm at closed position. Not a lot, but enough to make it hard to move! These things look simple, and work great when wide open, but aren't as simple as everyone thinks, In the old F1 days they made the slides hard. Either thin steel or hard anodized aluminum and used rollers on the downwind side. Bill Jepson On Thu, May 16, 2019, 10:39 AM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > The slide throttle is used where the rules allow for only a small intake > runner. No choke area is used so it only works with fuel injection. Also > there is no loss of diameter caused by a throttle shaft. So, the allowed > runner diameter can be used all through the runner. > > Lucas slide valves are expensive but work perfectly. Throttle bodies are > cheap and work well. If you get to maximum RPM before you have full > throttle, after playing with timing and FA ratio then your Throttle body > may be too large. A home made slide throttle is just added complexity > nobody needs, In my opinion. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > In a message dated 5/15/2019 7:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > Matt, > > Oh dear, you also have a slide throttle??? I also put > one on the first attempt linked to a vernier throttle cable. It worked > well if you were content to "wind" the throttle open and shut with the > vernier. However on my teat flight my pilot went to push the throttle op= en > and he nearly ended up in the back seat pushing and could not get the > throttle to budge. Sadly he failed my aircraft, with good cause for the > "what if" was the need for an immediate Go around. just would not be very > instant!!. IN a temper I had to totally redo my throttle assembly. I > ended sending the assembly back to Paul and asked what was wrong that it > refused to "slide": I am still awaiting a reply on the topic. I ended > replacing it with a dual throttle body that sadly did jnot match the hole= s > exactly, so much work went into adapting. It ended up being brilliant -- > will attach a photo if I can find one--- but as always very expensive. H= ad > the injectors and all self contained. > > ON another engine I put a large throttle body which was too big for I got > to full noise at 80% opening. The ideal size for a dingle throttle body > seems to be 70 to 75mm dia. I suggest others chime in here as I am going > from memory which with me is a bad move!!! > > Matt, as sad as it is I really suggest you replace the slide throttle as = a > proper slide throttle as lots of seals and bearings to take the suction, > which again makes them very dear. > > Another option which may not suit is to put dual Rotek carbies on. The= y > are OZ and cost approx $500 USD each --- again my memory!! I am told th= ey > are great value, but you will have to alter fuel pressure to start with = 9% > psi). > > Neil. > On 5/14/2019 3:27 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: > > I have a good one for you guys. I've been trying to get a slide throttle > to work. Lots of fixing to make it usable, mainly at lower RPM when the > suction is at it's highest. Lapped the outer plates flat, machined down t= he > thickness of the inside slide, doubled up all the bolts to seal fuel from > leaking, and stiffened up the throttle cable every few inches. BUT now th= at > I am taxing around, this issue is coming up and I think it has to do with > having the injectors before the slide throttle. I think... > > When I taxi (under 1100rpm prop) and start to step on the brakes, the > engine drops a few hundred RPM and struggles. If I pull power to idle to > slow down before tuning (600rpm prop), the engine will die. Unless I catc= h > it in time, and stab the throttle. The right brake is more pronounced the= n > the left. Even though the wideband is showing a quick lean condition, > I've tried riching up / leaning out the mixture at those lower rpm's to n= o > results. Once I get past 1200rpm prop and the engine is starting to breat= h, > no issues at higher powers. > > So we tried an experiment while idling and shook the plane left/right, it > reproduces the engine dieing. I did see a quick puff of black out the > tailpipe. That make me think at low idle, with the slide opening moves > right to left, the fuel is pooling at the bottom of the opening. The > shaking is causing raw fuel to make it's way in pass the opening. Drilled= a > few small holes at the bottom of the slide to hopefully suck in any raw > fuel that tries to pool. It's helped a tiny bit, but if I shake the intak= e, > the engine still isn't happy at idle. > > I don't have a video of the engine running (will get it tomorrow), but > here's a video of the intake setup. > https://youtu.be/tuwBkDuKh9Q > > I'm tempted to remove the slide throttle and put in a standard 3" > throttle body on my intake box (ie, before injectors). Just want to get > your guy's thoughts if I'm on the right track. And if anybody is running = a > slide throttle.? > > - Matt Boiteau > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > --00000000000063c2a50588f91d51 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn,=C2=A0
I've used smooth bore ca= rburetors, and factory slide throttles. I've never seen one without bea= rings, or a inlet ramp for small throttle openings. Paul did one that relie= s on a Teflon =C2=AE slide. Everyone forgets how much pressure is on that p= late of plastic. 87 pounds pressing against the engine side. (At a 2" = opening on a 13B) Even the material itself can be pliable at higher tempera= tures. Note that I didn't say melt, Teflon will take 400=C2=B0F without= melting, but it can deflect under pressure. If you use a 2" bore it m= ay even deflect into the bore when warm at closed position. Not a lot, but = enough to make it hard to move! These things look simple, and work great wh= en wide open, but aren't as simple as everyone thinks, In the old F1 da= ys they made the slides hard. Either thin steel or hard anodized aluminum a= nd used rollers on the downwind side.

Bill Jepson
On Thu, M= ay 16, 2019, 10:39 AM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The slide throttle is used where the rules allow for only a s= mall intake runner. No choke area is used so it only works with fuel inject= ion. Also there is no loss of diameter caused by a throttle shaft.=C2=A0 So= , the allowed runner diameter can be used all through the runner.

Lucas slide valves are expensive but work perfectly.=C2=A0 Th= rottle bodies are cheap and work well. If you get to maximum RPM before you= have full throttle, after playing with timing and FA ratio then your Throt= tle body may be too large.=C2=A0 A home made slide throttle is just added c= omplexity nobody needs, In my opinion.

Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 5/15/2019 7:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Matt,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Oh dear, you also have a slide throttle???= =C2=A0 I also put one on the first attempt linked to a vernier throttle cab= le.=C2=A0 It worked well if you were content to "wind" the thrott= le open and shut with the vernier.=C2=A0 However on my teat flight my pilot= went to push the throttle open and he nearly ended up in the back seat pus= hing and could not get the throttle to budge.=C2=A0 Sadly he failed my airc= raft, with good cause for the "what if" was the need for an immed= iate Go around. just would not be very instant!!.=C2=A0 IN a temper I had t= o totally redo my throttle assembly.=C2=A0 I ended sending the assembly bac= k to Paul and asked what was wrong that it refused to "slide":=C2= =A0 I am still awaiting a reply on the topic.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I ended replacing= it with a dual throttle body that sadly did jnot match the holes exactly, = so much work went into adapting.=C2=A0 It ended up being brilliant -- will = attach a photo if I can find one--- but as always very expensive.=C2=A0 Had= the injectors and all self contained.

ON another engine I put a large throttle body which was too big for I go= t to full noise at 80% opening.=C2=A0 The ideal size for a dingle throttle = body seems to be 70 to 75mm dia.=C2=A0 I suggest others chime in here as I = am going from memory which with me is a bad move!!!

Matt, as sad as it is I really suggest you replace the slide throttle as= a proper slide throttle as lots of seals and bearings to take the suction,= which again makes them very dear.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0Another option which may not suit is to put dual Rotek=C2=A0 carbi= es on.=C2=A0 They are OZ and cost approx $500 USD each=C2=A0 --- again my m= emory!!=C2=A0 I am told they are great value, but you will have to alter fu= el pressure to start with=C2=A0 9% psi).

Neil.

On 5/14/2019 3:27 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
I have a good one for you guys. I've been trying to = get a slide throttle to work. Lots of fixing to make it usable, mainly at l= ower RPM when the suction is at it's highest. Lapped the outer plates f= lat, machined down the thickness of the inside slide, doubled up all the bo= lts to seal fuel from leaking, and stiffened up the throttle cable every fe= w inches. BUT now that I am taxing around, this issue is coming up and I th= ink it has to do with having the injectors before the slide throttle. I thi= nk...

When I taxi (under 1100rpm prop) and start to step on the brakes, the = engine drops a few hundred RPM and struggles. If I pull power to idle to sl= ow down before tuning (600rpm prop), the engine will die. Unless I catch it= in time, and stab the throttle. The right brake is more pronounced then th= e left.=C2=A0Even though the= wideband is showing a quick lean condition, I've tried riching up / le= aning out the mixture at those lower rpm's to no results. Once I get pa= st 1200rpm prop and the engine is starting to breath, no issues at higher p= owers.

So we tried an experiment while idling and shook the plane left/right,= it reproduces the engine dieing. I did see a quick puff of black out the t= ailpipe. That make me think at low idle, with the slide opening moves right= to left, the fuel is pooling at the bottom of the opening. The shaking is = causing raw fuel to make it's way in pass the opening. Drilled a few sm= all holes at the bottom of the slide to hopefully suck in any raw fuel that= tries to pool. It's helped a tiny bit, but if I shake the intake, the = engine still isn't happy at idle.

I don't have a video of th= e engine running (will get it tomorrow), but here's a video of the inta= ke setup.
I'm tempted to remove the slide throttle and put in a=C2=A0standard=C2=A03" throttle body on my intake bo= x (ie, before injectors). Just want to get your guy's thoughts if I'= ;m on the right track. And if anybody is running a slide throttle.?<= /div>

- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://mai= l.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
--00000000000063c2a50588f91d51--