X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=YKy5iuLXnxoOKB4xgfqhSw==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=TPB0gybzSFkA:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=XKI2F-aZyqYLzXFqEo4A:9 a=jN_g4HngaV0HQ8ZP:21 a=zI2TpB_PTy6dOTPT:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=20jN-Z45FCM1G8nuqh4A:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=Hi17javIeMY86743:21 a=9I8Eeeg0ioW9LTg2:21 a=ABTkdiP-JfZChkzt:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Rob McMillan robmcmillanpls@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ot1-f53.google.com ([209.85.210.53] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12547398 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 10 May 2019 00:21:01 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.53; envelope-from=robmcmillanpls@gmail.com Received: by mail-ot1-f53.google.com with SMTP id g18so4166543otj.11 for ; Thu, 09 May 2019 21:21:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=j+UT5c+9sOPqk3I/2qvJ/aV5SshWRUtNIOnD1KLQ5ko=; b=kF1Xj6FSs772O8yUiwmDPJntGcxmugqdQ49bkgdBOOciu2g3KGoKDXb1SKUt73QrL3 3KpVBQJFn4ajYSeN/PyiZ76/tVqhIIwjSYDSo0Mu5Vs5ecmmmQt3qki5dyP73QLPh3Ts BqCu2czsNmGjb9ABFZrRdR1+hYj6sdA8hReanXRw4VQb11Bh28iYHlqk+V77FHageT+4 ETZgIwveHORx1+XypVf7hdmBchEcmmgd7YbA/SrEuK8Udnfe+YqNRnXgdgX0uVxHg5EG XAZbV5D1S3ZwbZgnwKSIsYcfIQ3sX/7Vq1N5OedTTFXnfBiMI/H5WsiP+tLwTfb/gPxA VNAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=j+UT5c+9sOPqk3I/2qvJ/aV5SshWRUtNIOnD1KLQ5ko=; b=kip1bCt+csiCC0txbSfRwltFpjg//NwI9JbbPVWxo1t6mfetHuAdwLfVplw4j7q+UJ aFhuIxqx+HxyxggdGUQj0RMiIXFK2d+x2w2EFdopmOyLxkvnLjQYO/M7bbW2NvVhS2V2 crudmnosrJ3cbdArRhQ1QeTGXw1MuhaiFWIHBjV2n+96LwTJldQLgtiLBCfqaVT2oQj9 gRJ1d8N/FaoU/mjcF3iwjch3WaSd/2Df7nG7xBlFAuLzJSXpjlASmKvJPYMXAzOWqmsc 1f4Xyfn4Vf91i1mxTn/iUugASk5UcVtH1fKoG/PqJqcoq0JyvzLH0z8ZdIC1qTuOJlaN zQIA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV20nqXf557KRjRgfZSOeYjzddpAovU35OtaX8Z66dKbGvZD8Ld 25UmN67Sf3x7uF2TvkjS+nmv1BY6Ozb3/t9wFb0YVg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyGaUOB7xiFLxnrKNd3Dofcnj2/gOzTHECnQSXI0jviuw8DK1REceOsX2PuNOKAg0K0mQQaoxMmafZxaTnMDIw= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:a6e:: with SMTP id 101mr1667791otg.356.1557462044698; Thu, 09 May 2019 21:20:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 21:19:51 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: rotary engine psru To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ececbb058880e391" --000000000000ececbb058880e391 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Listen to the gearbox with a stethoscope while at idle with the prop installed. You will hear the unhappy RPM in the gears. Just set the idle above that RPM. I love all the lessons I get from you guys! Rob On Thu, May 9, 2019, 9:03 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > The racer had a steel button flywheel. Just big enough to mount a 5 1/4" > Tilton dual disc clutch. This I bolted to the counterweight over a stock > flex plate. The same used flex plate was in the car many years later when > it sold. Total weight of the rotating assembly I added was less than 10 > pounds. At about 1600 RPM the engine shook so hard (and shook the trans > gears) it sounded like I was grinding up hammer heads. Even the straight > cut gears in the Saenz transmission were quiet at 2,000 RPM. So, the idle > was set at 2,000 RPM. No rubber torque absorber of any kind. Shifting at > 9,600 RPM. Never a problem. Listen to the gearbox with a stethoscope whil= e > at idle with the prop installed. You will hear the unhappy RPM in the > gears. Just set the idle above that RPM. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > In a message dated 5/9/2019 1:18:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > "horrendous instantaneous torque signature" is not true and its a lot > better with a wankel than with a piston engine. Fake news, I say. > > Dave Leonard > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I am always amazed when asking about this subject on rotary engine PSRU= =E2=80=99s. > This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert on redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6. > > Marc > > > > Marc: > > I have not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily > because of the > > horrendous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the > difficulty in properly > > attenuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop). > > Good luck with your project. > > Sincerely, > > Jack Kane > > EPI, Inc. > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive > > > > Dave and all, > > My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so > does not need the pressure feed. Matt is too polite to tell the whole > story. The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between > the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved > bearings do --- it melted. Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive > self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the > redrive which found the cooked bronze bush. Fortunately no other damage. > This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication. Hea= t > may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell. > > Rubber cushion drive --- Matt has really copped the "pineapple" on > this. Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- > Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication between > the office and the workman doing the job. In ignorance and lack of > knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to the o= ne > I am running currently. These cushion drives will be subject to recall a= nd > the proper rubber fitted. Very embarrassing and infuriating for me. > > So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil > should work well and will simplify things. > > Neil. > > On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: > > Well said, Charlie. Here is Neil's page with diagrams: > > http://naa73x.wixsite.com/rotarpower/propeller-psru > > > > BTW, very nicely done Neil. > > > > Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, > > I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be > using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil > feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if > there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure > feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil i= s > using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game > entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, bo= th > for lube and for cooling. > > On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: > > Neil's. 3.17 ratio. > > I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well. > > - Matt Boiteau > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives? If so, it will absolutely fail > in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing. > > > > Dave Leonard. > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got > to 135=C2=B0F. > > Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June. > > - Matt Boiteau > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, > > So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from > the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your temps......=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6.Let us know what > happens...=E2=80=A6... > > > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a > breather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, > but all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in > the picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear > oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so we= nt > back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I > can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet. > > > I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) > installed in the rear housing as well. > > > > - Matt Boiteau > > On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply acte= d > as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely filled > with oil. > > Steve Boese > > > On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote: > > > > =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercis= e > caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. > > > > > > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary? > > I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to > improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was > added. > > Jeff > > > > Jeff, > > At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the > modified drain and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with > respect to power absorption or heat generation. > > > > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was > ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. Connecting > the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the > center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended. > > > > The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil > return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot. > > > > Steve Boese > > > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > [image: > https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-ani= mated-no-repeat-v1.gif] > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > --000000000000ececbb058880e391 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Listen to the gearbox with a stethoscop= e while at idle with the prop installed. You will hear the unhappy RPM in t= he gears. Just set the idle above that RPM.

I love all the lessons I get from you guys!<= /div>

Rob


On Thu, = May 9, 2019, 9:03 PM lehanover lehanov= er@aol.com <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= div>
The racer had a steel button flywheel. Just big enough to mou= nt a 5 1/4" Tilton dual disc clutch. This I bolted to the counterweigh= t over a stock flex plate. The same used flex plate was in the car many yea= rs later when it sold. Total weight of the rotating assembly I added was le= ss than 10 pounds. At about 1600 RPM the engine shook so hard (and shook th= e trans gears) it sounded like I was grinding up hammer heads. Even the str= aight cut gears in the Saenz transmission were quiet at 2,000 RPM. So, the = idle was set at 2,000 RPM. No rubber torque absorber of any kind. Shifting = at 9,600 RPM. Never a problem. Listen to the gearbox with a stethoscope whi= le at idle with the prop installed. You will hear the unhappy RPM in the ge= ars. Just set the idle above that RPM.

Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 5/9/2019 1:18:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyr= otary@lancaironline.net writes:

"horrendous instantaneo= us torque signature"=C2=A0 is not true and its a lot better with a wan= kel than with a piston engine.=C2=A0 Fake news, I say.

Dave Leonard=C2=A0

On = Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@chart= er.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:

I am always amazed when asking about this subjec= t on rotary engine PSRU=E2=80=99s. This from EPI, the maker and supposed ex= pert on redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.<= /p>

Marc

=C2=A0

Marc:

I have not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, pr= imarily because of the=C2=A0

horrendous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus= the difficulty in properly=C2=A0

attenuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop= ).

Good luck with your project.

Sincerely,

Jack Kane

EPI, Inc.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6= :11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive

=C2=A0

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My= prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does not need the pressure feed= .=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt is too polite to tell the whole story.=C2=A0 The initial= run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between the input shaft and = the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bearings do=C2=A0=C2=A0 -= -- it melted.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive self de= struct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the redrive = which found the cooked bronze bush.=C2=A0 Fortunately no other damage.=C2= =A0 This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication.=C2= =A0 Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell.

Rubber cushion drive ---=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt has really copped the "pi= neapple" on this.=C2=A0 Finally turns out that the rubber firm used th= e wrong rubber --- Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of comm= unication between the office and the workman doing the job.=C2=A0 In ignora= nce and lack of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different r= ubber to the one I am running currently.=C2=A0 These cushion drives will be= subject to recall and the proper rubber fitted.=C2=A0 Very embarrassing an= d infuriating for me.=C2=A0

So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil sho= uld work well and will simplify things.

Neil.

On 5/9/2019 8:42 A= M, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:=

Well said, Charlie= .=C2=A0 Here is Neil's page with diagrams:

=C2=A0

BTW,=C2=A0 very ni= cely done Neil.

=C2=A0

Best I can tell it= is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys.

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 8, 201= 9 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com= <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :

Matt,

I'= ;ve not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be u= sing a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil= feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you= that if there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for= pressure feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. I= f Neil is using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different= game entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized = flow, both for lube and for cooling.

On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boite= au mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:

Neil's. 3.17 r= atio.

I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty w= ell.

- Matt Boiteau =

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 8, 201= 9, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

Matt, is this one = of Tracy Crooks drives?=C2=A0 If so, it will absolutely fail in short order= with no pressure feed to the main bearing.

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard.

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 8, 201= 9, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps = only got to 135=C2=B0F.

Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June.<= u>

- Matt Boiteau =

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 8, 201= 9, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

Matt,

=C2=A0 So you are = trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from the engine and = no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your temps......=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.Let us know= what happens...=E2=80=A6...

=C2=A0

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

On Tue, May 7, 201= 9 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com= <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :

I've been experimenting on Ne= il's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a breather vent on the rear h= ousing. So far I've only done ground testing, but all seems well enough= to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in the picture was only to see= the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear oil 70w-140 and it was w= ay to thick and came out the breather vent, so went back down to my normal = engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I can go a little less, ha= ven't tested the idle level yet.


I have a temp sensor (1/3 dow= n), and a digital level sensor (half way) installed in the rear housing as = well.

=C2=A0

- Matt Boiteau

On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

If the original return line was n= ot enlarged, the "vent" line simply acted as an additional return= line and my gearboxes operated completely filled with oil.

Steve B= oese

> On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:
>
> =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please= exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external = sources.
>
>
> Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil r= eturn necessary?
> I thought you first tried enlarging the return li= ne expecting it to improve draining, only to find no improvement until the = vent line was added.
> Jeff
>
> Jeff,
> At this= point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the modified dra= in and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with respect to power= absorption or heat generation.
>
> Connecting the vent line = to the foot of the rotor housing was ineffective even though this location = was above the oil level. Connecting the vent line to the area of the oil fi= ller opening at the top of the center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as = intended.
>
> The most troublesome part of the modification w= as enlarging the oil return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot. >
> Steve Boese
>
>
> --
> Homepage:= http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnS= ub: http://mail.lancai= ronline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

--
Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net= :81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

--
Homepage:=C2= =A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:= =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://ma= il.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


=

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