X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=/A7wSTOFXNEXWyNq5ILclA==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=-yp-5bnZGfgA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=20jN-Z45FCM1G8nuqh4A:9 a=uzsjYhlVfeE7mfCi:21 a=J9ya5CNiZfh5cIH2:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=lUcMEH6muonbwdNO:21 a=EGdetyrFIuTQ7B8P:21 a=QjhO3vzulxtRUBwd:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic306-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.132.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12547414 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 10 May 2019 00:02:54 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.132.42; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1557460959; bh=V/yQKcT1K144472olmFYDmuAU/prx5NLJxRq2wamOHg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=X2Jozk7QxurqoZH3i/qhlAe8+0ADZDiNyUkZVUpeg1QSnfh3uETVGUMD2KprA7roHB+zvIEMfxuXFfNmWDQgqJ10OROVJfoZG5+CDncdMrdfFbq/3LgOpP6Ls1JbcsPYWnUsBVXwO8E3x7pTX6/uFgCW9v/Gfv3ooNQoSP0ykDWBfeK4LOrXQc7n5/OxNhA7CzPO4o9RdVURxwEocYCJZGLgs7PE5rmceO6IxcEsdKZ0gFbCEGBpx5qsAyBlIp5SEKY9tnzRrvkShLa9vATyh3p4mWFYOPK7ff38AEoxGzpBKiVezpSWGq7tBkelcTLXpFawaaqi6odS3Hs+uXQPSw== X-YMail-OSG: NnnJGs4VM1m8.p6Hx2wmUFq1ZI9WZG9Ox.SF05.X6xEXUSttJKaHlhvqTOV8A.c WkUIT42EAgd5WBJXp0tleAj_XZaMSTEZdN6ZJMEVunj473pg5U0so3rFDHgU36TH6gxtBbJ_2dTG 8sqDQFqU.gbe9yFhOCo3eocpVIcYcDKPGiXEBYMm0eopJW3hG8VOhpsQTSAqfVuHbvWW8y0m2BES xqBsbhBnn8OLAU17GsvJl3i_OQ9Yj2UzbxZ_Xxbrz89hqWiFI3nkDJC2VdfVU7ASNgbpF3enoIat G_VPt8baJjkF3pR6SX4nZ2Ggs1CBadhP349oG4J1m8fp6NKhbJ0KtU7aW5a0PCEKGfFR0NC2an3h oLHBghRdRyNbTy.QPnEoS3i4Wp7lyhcgb0QjThtn.CDwGf0qn79qX9ZAq0mGsd95HZoyMjrFusp0 wE5fbG2oZFZOsgLe2fi15.TH5IY1Ix._X8zK_uxG9uK5C7_Ze5Od6QF1m11psZTuimAaU.qL8o3R FVpheKDepcpAh_QbsYM5EWIV3gutHj.4OcpfrhwS2RlZ2KBkGCxCqRCSg5Ihbgie8jZjQuZwJh1r 1xEXrIQGry9uSQ_HZRCboBFHwS6hT1A3.nWtaWhJzPd6Vx7MYJzbeimMYxtFEPD3OE.u0TaUxzTn d8b5PecW_35LeikfnZJk0GrwdFDyn2214yrA5VueEc6_BntChi7jtP5yX3ntd0FH6gxlM28T1gK0 NhvMprre9FmUSCy4UHiIBKA.x4Q3yvDVX7VATk0U0.Ka9W8Uj9jhoaQZDQefaKHMbWiL8MexqjiP Hx3IysgyQV2xkW6jtAk_YTi8IdWS6kLSxgzQUc8jbXadNS04x4YrCMwgqdbL4htri1EgFDldUCqz d8WoZmNqbSLVbEfNFHVg.PYPRN3RW74Mmp4YbyD1JH6YIvLU64SDcYVlYbYHzuUVyRdik8tFeNEc 1ShvtYX0PyJBu.UtlCtBb3NXRom_d6RDiqj.iqzTASw.mIeR5FaQOjPp01ESOsP4I0szXnEZ6Rsg g3HzYKviud5RnmHYAEqVgHL8hLU00KNVVzBCvSbJUjZqEuNkDzpiC2MF2FevHI21Aso9HmLuyQUh OPti5oVH71mOooug9iM7zGKZAV._Iskk4gg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 10 May 2019 04:02:39 +0000 Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 04:02:38 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <585722572.2367252.1557460958513@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: rotary engine psru MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2367251_1736741166.1557460958508" References: <585722572.2367252.1557460958513.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.13583 aolloki Apache-HttpClient/4.5.7 (Java/1.8.0_144) Content-Length: 29166 ------=_Part_2367251_1736741166.1557460958508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The racer had a steel button flywheel. Just big enough to mount a 5 1/4" Ti= lton dual disc clutch. This I bolted to the counterweight over a stock flex= plate. The same used flex plate was in the car many years later when it so= ld. Total weight of the rotating assembly I added was less than 10 pounds. = At about 1600 RPM the engine shook so hard (and shook the trans gears) it s= ounded like I was grinding up hammer heads. Even the straight cut gears in = the Saenz transmission were quiet at 2,000 RPM. So, the idle was set at 2,0= 00 RPM. No rubber torque absorber of any kind. Shifting at 9,600 RPM. Never= a problem. Listen to the gearbox with a stethoscope while at idle with the= prop installed. You will hear the unhappy RPM in the gears. Just set the i= dle above that RPM. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 5/9/2019 1:18:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes: "horrendous instantaneous torque signature"=C2=A0 is not true and its a lot= better with a wankel than with a piston engine.=C2=A0 Fake news, I say. Dave Leonard=C2=A0 On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net wrote: I am always amazed when asking about this subject on rotary engine PSRU=E2= =80=99s. This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert on redrives=E2=80=A6= =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6. Marc =C2=A0 Marc: I have not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily because= of the=C2=A0 horrendous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the difficulty= in properly=C2=A0 attenuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop). Good luck with your project. Sincerely, Jack Kane EPI, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive =C2=A0 Dave and all, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My pr= op shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does not need the pressure feed.= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt is too polite to tell the whole story.=C2=A0 The initial = run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between the input shaft and t= he prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bearings do=C2=A0=C2=A0 --= - it melted.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive self des= truct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the redrive w= hich found the cooked bronze bush.=C2=A0 Fortunately no other damage.=C2=A0= This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication.=C2=A0= Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell. Rubber cushion drive ---=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt has really copped the "pineapple"= on this.=C2=A0 Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubbe= r --- Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication bet= ween the office and the workman doing the job.=C2=A0 In ignorance and lack = of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to the = one I am running currently.=C2=A0 These cushion drives will be subject to r= ecall and the proper rubber fitted.=C2=A0 Very embarrassing and infuriating= for me.=C2=A0=20 So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil should= work well and will simplify things. Neil. On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: Well said, Charlie.=C2=A0 Here is Neil's page with diagrams:=20 http://naa73x.wixsite.com/rotarpower/propeller-psru =C2=A0 BTW,=C2=A0 very nicely done Neil. =C2=A0 Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys. =C2=A0 Dave Leonard =C2=A0 On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: Matt, I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be usin= g a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil feed h= ole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if there's a = sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure feeding, lack of = oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil is using a ball or r= oller bearing back there, that's a different game entirely, and I'd want hi= s input on whether it needs pressurized flow, both for lube and for cooling= . On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: Neil's. 3.17 ratio.=20 I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well. - Matt Boiteau=20 =C2=A0 On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?=C2=A0 If so, it will absolutely f= ail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing.=20 =C2=A0 Dave Leonard. =C2=A0 On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got to= 135=C2=B0F. Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June. - Matt Boiteau=20 =C2=A0 On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: Matt, =C2=A0 So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed fr= om the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your temps......=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6.Let us know what happens...=E2=80=A6... =C2=A0 Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a br= eather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, but = all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in the pi= cture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear oil 70w= -140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so went back d= own to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I can go = a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet.=20 I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) inst= alled in the rear housing as well. =C2=A0 - Matt Boiteau On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu wrote: If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply acted = as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely filled wi= th oil.=20 Steve Boese=20 > On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:=20 >=20 > =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise = caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.= =20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?=20 > I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to impro= ve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was added.=20 > Jeff=20 >=20 > Jeff,=20 > At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the mod= ified drain and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with respect= to power absorption or heat generation.=20 >=20 > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was ineffective= even though this location was above the oil level. Connecting the vent lin= e to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the center iron allow= ed the gearbox to drain as intended.=20 >=20 > The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil retur= n to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot.=20 >=20 > Steve Boese=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.ht= ml -- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyro= tary/List.html =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=20 |=20 Virus-free. www.avast.com=20 | =C2=A0 ------=_Part_2367251_1736741166.1557460958508 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The racer had a steel button flywheel. Just big enoug= h to mount a 5 1/4" Tilton dual disc clutch. This I bolted to the counterwe= ight over a stock flex plate. The same used flex plate was in the car many = years later when it sold. Total weight of the rotating assembly I added was= less than 10 pounds. At about 1600 RPM the engine shook so hard (and shook= the trans gears) it sounded like I was grinding up hammer heads. Even the = straight cut gears in the Saenz transmission were quiet at 2,000 RPM. So, t= he idle was set at 2,000 RPM. No rubber torque absorber of any kind. Shifti= ng at 9,600 RPM. Never a problem. Listen to the gearbox with a stethoscope = while at idle with the prop installed. You will hear the unhappy RPM in the= gears. Just set the idle above that RPM.

Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 5/9/2019 1:18:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes:

"horrendous instantaneous = torque signature"  is not true and its a lot better with a wankel than= with a piston engine.  Fake news, I say.

Dave Leonard 

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9= :25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I am always amazed when asking about this subject on rotary engin= e PSRU’s. This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert on redrives&he= llip;……….

Marc

 

Marc= :

I ha= ve not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily because of = the 

horr= endous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the difficulty in = properly 

atte= nuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop).

Good= luck with your project.

Sinc= erely,

Jack= Kane

EPI,= Inc.

 

 

From: Rotary motors = in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<= strong>Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduct= ion Drive

 

Dave and all,

            =              My= prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does not need the pressure feed= .   Matt is too polite to tell the whole story.  The initial= run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between the input shaft and = the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bearings do   -= -- it melted.   Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive self de= struct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the redrive = which found the cooked bronze bush.  Fortunately no other damage. = ; This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication. = ; Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell.<= /u>

Rubber cushion drive ---   Matt has really copped the "pineapp= le" on this.  Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong ru= bber --- Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication = between the office and the workman doing the job.  In ignorance and la= ck of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to t= he one I am running currently.  These cushion drives will be subject t= o recall and the proper rubber fitted.  Very embarrassing and infuriat= ing for me. 

So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil sho= uld work well and will simplify things.

Neil.

On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:

Well said, Charlie.  Here is Neil'= s page with diagrams:

 

BTW,  very nicely done Neil.

 

Best I can tell it is a pressure fed be= aring just like Tracys.

 

Dave Leonard

 

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie = England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:

Matt,

I've not followed Neil's v= ersion of the drive carefully; he may not be using a sleeve bearing. But Tr= acy's drive *does* use one, under that oil feed hole in the 'fat' part of t= he housing. Dave's telling you that if there's a sleeve type bearing in the= re that's designed for pressure feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain de= ath, in short order. If Neil is using a ball or roller bearing back there, = that's a different game entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it need= s pressurized flow, both for lube and for cooling.

On 5/8/2019 3:44 = PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:=

Neil's. 3.17 ratio.

I've fou= nd the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well.

- Matt Boiteau

 

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonar= d wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:

Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drive= s?  If so, it will absolutely fail in short order with no pressure fee= d to the main bearing.

 

Dave Leonard.

 

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boite= au mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net> wrote:

So far o= n the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got to 135°= ;F.

Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June.

- Matt Boiteau

 

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer= keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net> wrote:

Matt,

  So you are trying using self con= tained lube with no pressure feed from the engine and no drain...…..= .Watch your temps......…….Let us know what happens...…= ...

 

Kelly Troyer 

 

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Bo= iteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:

I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with seali= ng it up. Only adding a breather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only= done ground testing, but all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough.= The Tygon house in the picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped o= ff now. I ran gear oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the bre= ather vent, so went back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half f= ull, but I think I can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet.=


I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digita= l level sensor (half way) installed in the rear housing as well.<= /u>

 

- Matt Boiteau

On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. = Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net> wrote:

If the original return line was not enlarged, the= "vent" line simply acted as an additional return line and my gearboxes ope= rated completely filled with oil.

Steve Boese

> On May 7= , 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote: =
>
> =E2=97=86<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> This messa= ge was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when clicking = links or opening attachments from external sources.
>
>
&= gt; Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?
> I thou= ght you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to improve drain= ing, only to find no improvement until the vent line was added.
> Je= ff
>
> Jeff,
> At this point I have only 3 hr of fligh= t time on the gearbox with the modified drain and vent. I have not observed= a significant effect with respect to power absorption or heat generation. =
>
> Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing= was ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. Connect= ing the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the c= enter iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended.
>
> The = most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil return to 1= /2" NPT in the rotor housing foot.
>
> Steve Boese
> <= br>>
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: ht= tp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

--
= Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/li= sts/flyrotary/List.html

--
Homepage:  http://w= ww.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/L= ist.html


 

 

3D"https://ipmcdn.av=

Vi= rus-free. www.avast.com

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