X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=Lq6r7wnCGV6iLQba78UrEg==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=BYbNA6jkDfSEQ0r_mEUA:9 a=dNH1Ssrldk2HT_cC:21 a=CkIJUEVb53eCgV_i:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=qcfih2uxl23YZ9b8hGIA:9 a=6R2z1SNrbs5jNYuQ:21 a=1XvSLHbRCEuCWp5N:21 a=_WGLD9GNwfFplpoA:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lf1-f52.google.com ([209.85.167.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12547313 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 May 2019 22:41:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.52; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lf1-f52.google.com with SMTP id x132so3039045lfd.0 for ; Thu, 09 May 2019 19:41:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=muRdBxZlWu0LwUi+98XutpDA3Yv1s5lYxH5GKV83GPs=; b=fuM0+GvAh/gsh+sMfSsflhH/n+/0ZRL/7ePZ8pA/HLcg7cRMR0J83j5QKi7uDWIKGY KzjZuxQ5CL/ZaYcjuj+K0fpzgqJm5olySe1heJHn8chmKZkUI+c4v/T8ET7SncLMl0mM TnkyiXCdqiDg+s0SajItjljRT8vILX4G3LwSOsbVL26CF+a3EUEb6xdMCrLxj1p28Icq RAoI1HNZiGUxmmtwtFbwDaAiZ1RzV10BdDnKtfVUQZ0C2AiCxd8M/qRf9KEV42Wps+5z R2+aNweg2oNEDC0HxOV4gVSqkhTs0V/5ddi1plP+oHKpOCG8VasUeknv7sco0pXL4Ttk FdqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=muRdBxZlWu0LwUi+98XutpDA3Yv1s5lYxH5GKV83GPs=; b=tA1zeDh42w2wfKYRnBddkf2knLvzL7El3wRUUCk4BywzhAkSpFo3eAS8zNFJ+URQbt hyxsijFC9uGhLMbNNZ0e2Q2aDxCT1qm2DRHGmmE/vDPtnt1416D5vuQkQqd+WihG9qLm 3zE65T8/H8WLDBpSNYB/Nzv535nFKwSlvEc8t+lEgyhPIRRukRD12EUJYFXIEOOi1Beb eQxoxW9aCdnHIk0wATf3M2zsmeOhJ2Hi5UGPBdKPOyKor4QD3vp2wEXsQXSapn6Hno21 HiwuAgMbzXlL2759nuNX7z9YCCuQmOzam4JeLn5ehBF1tU2bjIgWAhDIJ4FS1mjVqGXj YOug== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVHCnubvut3hfgScrRjRytxlAoVM0wKwPR81T4qwGTNZy6odraO yRr5gr26073UkrtPkA4pg4bu4uEcflJeZy1ylCPyBA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxofaMjn+l9UUpO36jT6g6jho1REJoAGkRoQ0zMf4z6j9MEWIu2XDkkr1kUWuZW0DuHINCEUoahIBI/v8CPafs= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4246:: with SMTP id m6mr4623279lfl.0.1557456091721; Thu, 09 May 2019 19:41:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 21:39:43 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000019b46f05887f8175" --00000000000019b46f05887f8175 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neil, I have one of your "Flex Drives" sourced from Randy here in the US...=E2=80=A6...Does it come under the recall for the incorrect rubber formulation ? Kelly Troyer On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:05 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > When racing with the stock Mazda trans we often lost the tailshaft > bushing. I cut a new bushing in half and pressed them in with a small spa= ce > between the two pieces. I put in a tapered pipe hole between the two for > pressure oiling. I used a double lip Garlock seal and made up three "U" > shaped clamps to keep the seals in place. And the Garlocks prevented the > bushing from walking out of the housing when it got hot. The oil pump put > the oil through a cooler to keep that bushing cool. When we started using > the Richmond Gear trans I did the same mods to it. Never a problem. Once > one of those bushing starts rotating with the shaft it will wear the hole > bigger and ruin the housing. If you must use a bushing, think of a way to > pin that bushing in place. Even a tight press fit will let go of the > bushing if the housing is overheated. Many a Mazda trans has died this wa= y. > > A synthetic trans lube will foam less and then return drain better. Much > better if the engine oil is being used in the reduction unit as well. We > used RedLine racing 40 weight. Pours like lighter fluid. Never an oil > related failure in 30 years. Rotaries have an oil foaming problem. Foam i= s > air and oil mixed. Air is an insulator. > So, oil cooling is much improved with a synthetic. > > In the Mistral Piper, they used aircraft oil. It foamed badly and reduced > the effectiveness of the coolers, thus over heating the oil. Never made i= t > to Sun&Fun. > Just a few thoughts......................Lynn E. Hanover > > In a message dated 5/8/2019 7:11:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > Dave and all, > > My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so > does not need the pressure feed. Matt is too polite to tell the whole > story. The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between > the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved > bearings do --- it melted. Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive > self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the > redrive which found the cooked bronze bush. Fortunately no other damage. > This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication. Hea= t > may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell. > > Rubber cushion drive --- Matt has really copped the "pineapple" on > this. Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- > Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication between > the office and the workman doing the job. In ignorance and lack of > knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to the o= ne > I am running currently. These cushion drives will be subject to recall a= nd > the proper rubber fitted. Very embarrassing and infuriating for me. > > So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil > should work well and will simplify things. > > Neil. > On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: > > Well said, Charlie. Here is Neil's page with diagrams: > http://naa73x.wixsite.com/rotarpower/propeller-psru > > BTW, very nicely done Neil. > > Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys. > > Dave Leonard > > On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, > > I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be > using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil > feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if > there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure > feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil i= s > using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game > entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, bo= th > for lube and for cooling. > > On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: > > Neil's. 3.17 ratio. > I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well. > > - Matt Boiteau > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives? If so, it will absolutely fail > in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing. > > Dave Leonard. > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got > to 135=C2=B0F. > > Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June. > > - Matt Boiteau > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, > So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from > the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your temps......=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6.Let us know what > happens...=E2=80=A6... > > Kelly Troyer > > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a > breather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, > but all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in > the picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear > oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so we= nt > back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I > can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet. > > I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) > installed in the rear housing as well. > > - Matt Boiteau > > On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply acte= d > as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely filled > with oil. > > Steve Boese > > > On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote: > > > > =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercis= e caution > when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. > > > > > > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary? > > I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to > improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was > added. > > Jeff > > > > Jeff, > > At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the > modified drain and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with > respect to power absorption or heat generation. > > > > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was > ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. Connecting > the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the > center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended. > > > > The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil > return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot. > > > > Steve Boese > > > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > Virus-free= . > www.avast.com > > > -- --00000000000019b46f05887f8175 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Neil,
=C2=A0 I have one of= your "Flex Drives" sourced from Randy here in the US...=E2=80=A6= ...Does it come under the recall for=C2=A0
the incorrect rubber f= ormulation ?

Kelly Troyer

On Thu, May 9, 2019= at 12:05 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.c= om <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:
When racing with the stock Mazda trans we often lost the t= ailshaft bushing. I cut a new bushing in half and pressed them in with a sm= all space between the two pieces. I put in a tapered pipe hole between the = two for pressure oiling. I used a double lip Garlock seal and made up three= "U" shaped clamps to keep the seals in place. And the Garlocks p= revented the bushing from walking out of the housing when it got hot. The o= il pump put the oil through a cooler to keep that bushing cool. When we sta= rted using the Richmond Gear trans I did the same mods to it. Never a probl= em. Once one of those bushing starts rotating with the shaft it will wear t= he hole bigger and ruin the housing. If you must use a bushing, think of a = way to pin that bushing in place. Even a tight press fit will let go of the= bushing if the housing is overheated. Many a Mazda trans has died this way= .

A synthetic trans lube will foam less and then return drai= n better. Much better if the engine oil is being used in the reduction unit= as well. We used RedLine racing 40 weight. Pours like lighter fluid. Never= an oil related failure in 30 years. Rotaries have an oil foaming problem. = Foam is air and oil mixed. Air is an insulator.
So, oil cooling is much improved with a synthetic.

In the Mistral Piper, they used aircraft oil. It foamed ba= dly and reduced the effectiveness of the coolers, thus over heating the oil= . Never made it to Sun&Fun.
Just a few thoughts......................Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 5/8/2019 7:11:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline= .net writes:

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My= prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does not need the pressure feed= .=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt is too polite to tell the whole story.=C2=A0 The initial= run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between the input shaft and = the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bearings do=C2=A0=C2=A0 -= -- it melted.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive self de= struct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the redrive = which found the cooked bronze bush.=C2=A0 Fortunately no other damage.=C2= =A0 This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication.=C2= =A0 Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell.

Rubber cushion drive ---=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt has really copped the "pi= neapple" on this.=C2=A0 Finally turns out that the rubber firm used th= e wrong rubber --- Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of comm= unication between the office and the workman doing the job.=C2=A0 In ignora= nce and lack of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different r= ubber to the one I am running currently.=C2=A0 These cushion drives will be= subject to recall and the proper rubber fitted.=C2=A0 Very embarrassing an= d infuriating for me.=C2=A0

So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil sho= uld work well and will simplify things.

Neil.

On 5= /9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:
Well said, Charlie.=C2=A0 Here is Neil's page with dia= grams:

BTW,=C2=A0 very nicely done Neil.

Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys.

Dave Leonard

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gma= il.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=
Matt,

I've not followed Neil's versio= n of the drive carefully; he may not be using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy&#= 39;s drive *does* use one, under that oil feed hole in the 'fat' pa= rt of the housing. Dave's telling you that if there's a sleeve type= bearing in there that's designed for pressure feeding, lack of oil pre= ssure is certain death, in short order. If Neil is using a ball or roller b= earing back there, that's a different game entirely, and I'd want h= is input on whether it needs pressurized flow, both for lube and for coolin= g.

On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
Neil's. 3.17 ratio.
I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well.
- Matt Boiteau

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?=C2=A0 If so, it will absolut= ely fail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing.

Dave Leonard.

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.= com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only g= ot to 135=C2=B0F.

Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June.
- Matt Boiteau

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Matt,
=C2=A0 So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure fe= ed from the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your temps......=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6.Let us know what happens...=E2=80=A6...

Kelly Troyer

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gma= il.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=
I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU= with sealing it up. Only adding a breather vent on the rear housing. So fa= r I've only done ground testing, but all seems well enough to fly with = it soon enough. The Tygon house in the picture was only to see the oil flow= , it's capped off now. I ran gear oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick a= nd came out the breather vent, so went back down to my normal engine oil 20= w-50. Filled half full, but I think I can go a little less, haven't tes= ted the idle level yet.

I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half = way) installed in the rear housing as well.

- Matt Boiteau

On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 = PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net> wrote:

If the original retur= n line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply acted as an addit= ional return line and my gearboxes operated completely filled with oil.
Steve Boese

> On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:
>
> =E2=97=86 This mess= age was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when clicking= links or opening attachments from external sources.
>
>
= > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?
> I tho= ught you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to improve drai= ning, only to find no improvement until the vent line was added.
> J= eff
>
> Jeff,
> At this point I have only 3 hr of flig= ht time on the gearbox with the modified drain and vent. I have not observe= d a significant effect with respect to power absorption or heat generation.=
>
> Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housin= g was ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. Connec= ting the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the = center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended.
>
> The= most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil return to = 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot.
>
> Steve Boese
= >
>
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.= com/
> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

= --
Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub= : http://mail.lancaironline.net:8= 1/lists/flyrotary/List.html
--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and= UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.l= ancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html




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