X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=QF6DTZBTSm3UB03eFs26XA==:117 a=S9f7qBTynnNd1WmQmawNoA==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=HWW3RDqpd7FmzupCug4A:9 a=84L7PCQOCFoE1hLH:21 a=H7vcztX9RvhGKOZT:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=GBZKE_NBAAAA:8 a=feYyyx1H1ypunDOuIjUA:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=t0_sVMtrj3NEA3BR:21 a=KoCaiHAhM-0TTi6B:21 a=8XlEcvjNHZCxoqXX:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=-FEs8UIgK8oA:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=kZBJ7nflOVY83HLdyZAa:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-it1-f171.google.com ([209.85.166.171] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12547249 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 May 2019 21:10:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.166.171; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-it1-f171.google.com with SMTP id s3so6814698itk.1 for ; Thu, 09 May 2019 18:10:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=in-reply-to:references:thread-topic:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to:message-id; bh=SdvZcGvTgIh1SxoBYoBRLv8HgKPhDge39c9nbc9/wkM=; b=MfVxzNNmOVwN8fGy15KoXRGFwFQ3QDHvj8cO+5NIbzMZUCOIs3xPF/pSrHHg1YT56F Jmc/095bcqIHOu5KX3dYvL2VmZ2SJqOAqOoKa+JN2Gd9A5sMVs4VDtj2kxuwqAeD5vVu tNrmidFNeNyscBgd/iAPaFiXVdI8sGlV7O+cMMqv3AoW+5R1+EOV6k6evR1t8yMO4Otn 3M0DfIs44yZoQ7dAEt4p7CfJ59uOM7ZRxDQEHI0RmbG6FDin2cQ/F2Kje6/Qt9Gib+IH p2aIYgsg4T7wCvXmswUeJsQ0ubiL+yGdCscHtIN/MKjym1Am6v7QqC721n60TkYGJ56K nFiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:in-reply-to:references:thread-topic:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to :message-id; bh=SdvZcGvTgIh1SxoBYoBRLv8HgKPhDge39c9nbc9/wkM=; b=g1QZQHeN7mBqg2/1avmQ2XWsl6py9iLE0ucgRkUMEwaXy8MF26NkeiPw4NnvBjyc/M Gh19fHm6DdVOdBjEZLfBqyuMzcJ1LsPuk8bShWb2A+GXhtokGL1pMscE4S9GP5ZwQQOn pGVtMmAUyr+Z0wXckIelfqb0eTh7d9tm95JkIo5a/LSIw0D3i5er2Z1+VQzFgXcPpTVJ akk2k1pzA5xXp7swbyFa//yHhalunzezy8Dz23WIhW54TS4BLpJkLpyEjnMD7jh7wZSe Vzvr1j43LP4CPabCYj38z8DZlLL/Koq/2Zxf6jnd1u6rLmhJVISKJI+QYeIslTr8smoQ 0yzg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVlYrvf3YC1H6gQNjUu6OMfQ5GRpTynZBb8QTOxeVZoujcVcEeU h+ht+V4562knZHH01+ngBnyYQNW8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxL75f+fpX6RCWDSudBXM1MSETlsQ+B8D3/mxkAFAKaiVRcb8cgLD/5HtRjofRtfw5vErE3Iw== X-Received: by 2002:a24:274f:: with SMTP id g76mr5528301ita.91.1557450618380; Thu, 09 May 2019 18:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.157.84.207] (mobile-107-92-123-28.mycingular.net. [107.92.123.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e204sm2252855itc.40.2019.05.09.18.10.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 May 2019 18:10:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: X-Referenced-Uid: 41951 Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: rotary engine psru X-Blue-Identity: !l=146&o=96583&fo=113303&pl=36&po=0&qs=PREFIX&f=HTML&n=Charlie%20England&e=ceengland7%40gmail.com&m=!%3AMWIzNTc1NzYtYzhmNy00OTNmLWFiNGItODY1MzJjZTA4MjBi%3ASU5CT1g%3D%3ANDE5NTE%3D%3AANSWERED&p=13&q=SHOW X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----O5MTQRC1E455WQQEOD3H3OLAKILTIJ" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Local-Message-Id: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: rotary engine psru Date: Thu, 09 May 2019 21:10:15 -0400 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: ------O5MTQRC1E455WQQEOD3H3OLAKILTIJ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Urban legend, caused by the original Powersport=2E One of their prototype e= ngines shredded the input shaft to a dyno=2E Apparently, it had only been e= xposed to V-8s (4per rev) prior to the rotary run=2E Y'all know that Trac= y's been running the RV4 for years, with no damping coupler at all? Charli= e =E2=81=A3Sent from BlueMail =E2=80=8B On May 9, 2019, 1:18 PM, at 1:18 = PM, "David Leonard wdleonard@gmail=2Ecom" w= rote: >"horrendous instantaneous torque signature" is not true and its a l= ot >better with a wankel than with a piston engine=2E Fake news, I say=2E = > >Dave Leonard > >On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@chart= er=2Enet < >flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote: > >> I am always amazed w= hen asking about this subject on rotary engine >PSRU=E2=80=99s=2E >> This f= rom EPI, the maker and supposed expert on redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6=2E >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> Marc: >> >> I have not done any PSRU= systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily >> because of the >> >> horrend= ous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the >> difficulty in = properly >> >> attenuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop= )=2E >> >> Good luck with your project=2E >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jack Kane = >> >> EPI, Inc=2E >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM >> *T= o:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:*= [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive >> >> >> >> Dave and all, >> >= > My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, >so >= > does not need the pressure feed=2E Matt is too polite to tell the >whol= e >> story=2E The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush >b= etween >> the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil sta= rved >> bearings do --- it melted=2E Luckily Matt had his rubber cushio= n >drive >> self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the disman= tle of >the >> redrive which found the cooked bronze bush=2E Fortunately n= o other >damage=2E >> This prompted us to make the unit self contained as f= or lubrication=2E >Heat >> may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will = soon tell=2E >> >> Rubber cushion drive --- Matt has really copped the "p= ineapple" on >> this=2E Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wr= ong rubber >--- >> Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of comm= unication >between >> the office and the workman doing the job=2E In ignor= ance and lack of >> knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally differe= nt rubber to >the one >> I am running currently=2E These cushion drives wi= ll be subject to >recall and >> the proper rubber fitted=2E Very embarrass= ing and infuriating for me=2E >> >> So as info becomes available I will pos= t, but the self contained oil >> should work well and will simplify things= =2E >> >> Neil=2E >> >> On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail= =2Ecom wrote: >> >> Well said, Charlie=2E Here is Neil's page with diagram= s: >> >> http://naa73x=2Ewixsite=2Ecom/rotarpower/propeller-psru >> >> >> >= > BTW, very nicely done Neil=2E >> >> >> >> Best I can tell it is a pressu= re fed bearing just like Tracys=2E >> >> >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> >> >> On = Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail=2Ecom < >> fly= rotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote: >> >> Matt, >> >> I've not followed Neil= 's version of the drive carefully; he may not >be >> using a sleeve bearing= =2E But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that >oil >> feed hole in the '= fat' part of the housing=2E Dave's telling you that >if >> there's a sleeve= type bearing in there that's designed for pressure >> feeding, lack of oil= pressure is certain death, in short order=2E If >Neil is >> using a ball o= r roller bearing back there, that's a different game >> entirely, and I'd w= ant his input on whether it needs pressurized >flow, both >> for lube and f= or cooling=2E >> >> On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail=2Ec= om wrote: >> >> Neil's=2E 3=2E17 ratio=2E >> >> I've found the back gears p= ush the oil to the front pretty well=2E >> >> - Matt Boiteau >> >> >> >> On= Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail=2Ecom < >> flyrotary= @lancaironline=2Enet> wrote: >> >> Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives= ? If so, it will absolutely >fail >> in short order with no pressure feed = to the main bearing=2E >> >> >> >> Dave Leonard=2E >> >> >> >> On Wed, May = 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail=2Ecom < >> flyrotary@lancai= ronline=2Enet> wrote: >> >> So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for = 30seconds, temps only >got >> to 135=C2=B0F=2E >> >> Haven't flown yet=2E W= ill advise in June=2E >> >> - Matt Boiteau >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 8, 2019,= 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail=2Ecom < >> flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> = wrote: >> >> Matt, >> >> So you are trying using self contained lube with= no pressure feed >from >> the engine and no drain=2E=2E=2E=E2=80=A6=2E=2E= =2EWatch your temps=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=2ELet us know >what= >> happens=2E=2E=2E=E2=80=A6=2E=2E=2E >> >> >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> >> >>= On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail=2Ecom < >> = flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote: >> >> I've been experimenting on Neil= 's PSRU with sealing it up=2E Only >adding a >> breather vent on the rear h= ousing=2E So far I've only done ground >testing, >> but all seems well enou= gh to fly with it soon enough=2E The Tygon house >in >> the picture was onl= y to see the oil flow, it's capped off now=2E I ran >gear >> oil 70w-140 an= d it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, >so went >> back down= to my normal engine oil 20w-50=2E Filled half full, but I >think I >> can = go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet=2E >> >> >> I have a te= mp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half >way) >> installed i= n the rear housing as well=2E >> >> >> >> - Matt Boiteau >> >> On 2019-05-0= 7 12:32:26 PM, Steven W=2E Boese SBoese@uwyo=2Eedu < >> flyrotary@lancairon= line=2Enet> wrote: >> >> If the original return line was not enlarged, the = "vent" line simply >acted >> as an additional return line and my gearboxes = operated completely >filled >> with oil=2E >> >> Steve Boese >> >> > On May= 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast=2Ecom wrote: >> > >> > = =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address=2E Please exercise = >> caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external >source= s=2E >> > >> > >> > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?= >> > I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to >= > improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was >> = added=2E >> > Jeff >> > >> > Jeff, >> > At this point I have only 3 hr of f= light time on the gearbox with >the >> modified drain and vent=2E I have no= t observed a significant effect >with >> respect to power absorption or hea= t generation=2E >> > >> > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor= housing was >> ineffective even though this location was above the oil lev= el=2E >Connecting >> the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at= the top of the >> center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended=2E = >> > >> > The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the o= il >> return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot=2E >> > >> > Steve Boese= >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www=2Eflyrotary=2Ecom/ >> > Archiv= e and UnSub: >> http://mail=2Elancaironline=2Enet:81/lists/flyrotary/List= =2Ehtml >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www=2Eflyrotary=2Ecom/ >> Archive and = UnSub: >> http://mail=2Elancaironline=2Enet:81/lists/flyrotary/List=2Ehtml = >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www=2Eflyrotary=2Ecom/ >> Archive and UnSub: = >> http://mail=2Elancaironline=2Enet:81/lists/flyrotary/List=2Ehtml >> >> >= > >> >> >> >> [image: >> >https://ipmcdn=2Eavast=2Ecom/images/icons/icon-en= velope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1=2Egif] >> > >> >> Virus-free=2E www= =2Eavast=2Ecom >> > >> >> >> >> ------O5MTQRC1E455WQQEOD3H3OLAKILTIJ Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Urban legend, caused by the orig= inal Powersport=2E One of their prototype engines shredded the input shaft = to a dyno=2E Apparently, it had only been exposed to V-8s (4per rev) prior = to the rotary run=2E

Y'all know that Tracy= 's been running the RV4 for years, with no damping coupler at all?

<= /div>
Charlie

Sent from BlueMail=
On May 9, 2019, at 1:18 PM, "David Leonard wdleonard@gmail=2Ecom" <= flyrotar= y@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:
"ho= rrendous instantaneous torque signature"  is not true and its a lot be= tter with a wankel than with a piston engine=2E  Fake news, I say=2E

Dave Leonard  

On Thu, May 9, 2= 019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmar= c@charter=2Enet <fl= yrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:

I am always amazed when ask= ing about this subject on rotary engine PSRU=E2=80=99s=2E This from EPI, th= e maker and supposed expert on redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6= =2E

Marc

 

Marc:<= u>

I have not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily be= cause of the 

horrendous instantaneous torque signature they exhi= bit, thus the difficulty in properly 

attenuating the excitation = pulses into the gearbox (and prop)=2E

Good luck with your project=2E

Sincerely,

Jack Kane

EPI, Inc=2E

 

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyr= otary@lancaironline=2Enet>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ventin= g the Reduction Drive

 

Dave and all,

 &n= bsp;            = ;           My prop shaft= is on timken taper bearings, so does not need the pressure feed=2E &n= bsp; Matt is too polite to tell the whole story=2E  The initial run di= d not get enough oil to the bronze bush between the input shaft and the pro= p shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bearings do   --- it m= elted=2E   Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive self destruc= t as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the redrive which= found the cooked bronze bush=2E  Fortunately no other damage=2E = This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication=2E&nbs= p; Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell=2E<= u>

Rubber cushion drive ---   Matt has really copped th= e "pineapple" on this=2E  Finally turns out that the rubber firm used = the wrong rubber --- Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of co= mmunication between the office and the workman doing the job=2E  In ig= norance and lack of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally differe= nt rubber to the one I am running currently=2E  These cushion drives w= ill be subject to recall and the proper rubber fitted=2E  Very embarra= ssing and infuriating for me=2E 

So as info becom= es available I will post, but the self contained oil should work well and w= ill simplify things=2E

Neil=2E

On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail=2Ecom wrote:=

Well said, Charlie=2E  Here is Neil'= s page with diagrams:

 

=

BTW,  very nicely done Neil=2E

 

Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tr= acys=2E

 =

Dave Leonard

 

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail=2Ecom= <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:

Matt,

I've not f= ollowed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be using a sleeve= bearing=2E But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil feed hole in t= he 'fat' part of the housing=2E Dave's telling you that if there's a sleeve= type bearing in there that's designed for pressure feeding, lack of oil pr= essure is certain death, in short order=2E If Neil is using a ball or rolle= r bearing back there, that's a different game entirely, and I'd want his in= put on whether it needs pressurized flow, both for lube and for cooling=2E<= br>
On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail=2Ecom wrote:=

Neil's=2E 3=2E17 ratio=2E

I've found the back gears push = the oil to the front pretty well=2E

- Matt Boiteau

 

On Wed, May 8= , 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail=2Ecom <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wro= te:

Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?  If so, it will absolut= ely fail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing=2E

 

=

Dave Leonard=2E

 

On= Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail=2Ecom <flyrotary@lancaironline= =2Enet> wrote:

=

So far on the grou= nd, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got to 135=C2=B0F=2E
=
Haven't flown yet=2E Will advise in June=2E

- Matt Boiteau

 

On Wed, May 8= , 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail=2Ecom <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:<= /u>

Matt,

  So = you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from the eng= ine and no drain=2E=2E=2E=E2=80=A6=2E=2E=2EWatch your temps=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=2ELet us know what happens=2E=2E=2E=E2=80=A6=2E=2E=2E=

 

Kelly Troyer 

 

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail=2Ecom &= lt;flyro= tary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:

I've been experimentin= g on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up=2E Only adding a breather vent on the r= ear housing=2E So far I've only done ground testing, but all seems well eno= ugh to fly with it soon enough=2E The Tygon house in the picture was only t= o see the oil flow, it's capped off now=2E I ran gear oil 70w-140 and it wa= s way to thick and came out the breather vent, so went back down to my norm= al engine oil 20w-50=2E Filled half full, but I think I can go a little les= s, haven't tested the idle level yet=2E


I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half wa= y) installed in the rear housing as well=2E

<= div>

 

- Matt Boitea= u

On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Ste= ven W=2E Boese SBoes= e@uwyo=2Eedu <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:

If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent= " line simply acted as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated = completely filled with oil=2E

Steve Boese

> On May 7, 20= 19, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast=2Ecom wrote:
>
> =E2=97=86 This messag= e was sent from a non-UWYO address=2E Please exercise caution when clicking= links or opening attachments from external sources=2E
>
> > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?
> I t= hought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to improve dr= aining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was added=2E
&g= t; Jeff
>
> Jeff,
> At this point I have only 3 hr of = flight time on the gearbox with the modified drain and vent=2E I have not o= bserved a significant effect with respect to power absorption or heat gener= ation=2E
>
> Connecting the vent line to the foot of the roto= r housing was ineffective even though this location was above the oil level= =2E Connecting the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the t= op of the center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended=2E
> =
> The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oi= l return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot=2E
>
> Steve B= oese
>
>
> --
> Homepage: http://www=2Eflyrotary=2Ecom/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail=2Elancaironline= =2Enet:81/lists/flyrotary/List=2Ehtml

--
Homepage: http://www=2Eflyrotary= =2Ecom/
Archive and UnSub: http://mail=2Elancair= online=2Enet:81/lists/flyrotary/List=2Ehtml

--
Homepage:  http://www=2Eflyrotary= =2Ecom/
Archive and UnSub:   http://ma= il=2Elancaironline=2Enet:81/lists/flyrotary/List=2Ehtml


<= /div>

 

 

3D"https://ipmcdn=2Ea=

Virus-free=2E www=2Eavast=2Ecom=

 

<= /div>
------O5MTQRC1E455WQQEOD3H3OLAKILTIJ--