X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=AiqyYAvfA7zNxtRoVfXC+g==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=oSMvVwY2MYMA:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=x2ruqFfzAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=oKnZK_PhRuz3uxxcz00A:9 a=_n2jy6hnJ8vm5Wf0:21 a=at7G-QH_EY3uKt8j:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=DLSOBNa8jVQA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=SH0XZEVpUE3xsA7jqPIA:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=ciePRqbC1pcmsFSE:21 a=ONnCSUxpYI0nQ2sd:21 a=XRgpucZCa5wy9917:21 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=NrvK4TCbR5S6hO5fgSYU:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com" Received: from mail-qk1-f173.google.com ([209.85.222.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12546139 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 May 2019 14:09:28 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.222.173; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-qk1-f173.google.com with SMTP id c1so717086qkk.4 for ; Thu, 09 May 2019 11:09:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=9zplkOIT+nZwaDa78cFE3JgFCdmjVtYvcXjKx5GB1Rs=; b=I3N5UMVmU9DV93gBuMWCJq2FRLSjJOB9GZmL6g2oQ6Z2QvKEAlFMZ+SVwGc44+529S Zyi1tbnPN1DwropYEc6XSLuzjgUdoBmko6+MBJIdlzdquFSX+gN3p+RN4qJdXxkLLYeA W7b/hH0g/ttcKcwFCXC26+UutWMbtfGwHogfF8o5VPo/5v01atYNpUsJ2HSZGDEfMLrD ZJUb378adcBoPapGhHgkbQjA5qAtKt5EbJr0uDgd0eH8Oy3gpA4U+BSlcPxm5QGqCANp hOviYCwcMOQklcMDSnnwj+HRW5jICkHRg8JnHd+9czHe7+hi1GFZr0VvwKa5OodD6Az9 bTEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=9zplkOIT+nZwaDa78cFE3JgFCdmjVtYvcXjKx5GB1Rs=; b=HulZvRrjQbEm+wEBb0A6p39u63dPAGZt69ypUclkm2IZr39VCeQ7zX87HQ1oSOVo5c gmpQiA2O0zbt9eChtVTde3LbtHX1z9FTH941t9Qouu3Je+vVHJWaTRBGH0MFn6svkaCO HgzVBrw2G27ObRIelX+jQWWucncxoTD+8soKTQtciDRTXT7DFQgfCO/pjtD6POllNPUs bK0FB++HlwcQjyIMx2W4aS09n2d2YNZKG9v8MoVvZ7jNGL1U/X6Et2PnKnfB3BOwr1Qv PBtLBYpytiVEHYV2s1ph2z6v4PGfdcreP+Wf7f4jVWqHF9rxZbkoI2NnOjvTn8e2zswX HQLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVkqqwQFbifB518Op3XmSwS8XJin5uKKH+l2bdtZEcF5GvFdJ+y guZcd7OaV/+HJ/eS7u2XdWcMmejf4lIuY9Fakgshzg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxurkiPmYwoLoVQOndcv//AtIbggQx2apMpY4EUNFavsvtr0wai79wniOvMMHcp8CwEK+9dfS5zaqGUc0tPYgQ= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9c82:: with SMTP id f124mr4745297qke.58.1557425351727; Thu, 09 May 2019 11:09:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 11:08:59 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: rotary engine psru To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000da9d1f0588785868" --000000000000da9d1f0588785868 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks like he does a lot of one-off designs. I see Lee Behel's "Sweet Dreams" Chevy conversion pictured on that page. I know Lee went through a couple of different PSRU's, not sure if EPI made the successful one that helped Lee break the Time to Climb record (now crushed by a Rotary), or if EPI made the unsuccessful design. Either way, EPI may know gears be he obviously does not know much about a rotary. The power pulses on the Rotary last for 270deg of rotation (vs less than 180deg for a 4-cyl) and are much much small than on an equivalently powered 4 cyl. Dave Leonard On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:38 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > And this coming from this guy=E2=80=99s firm =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.= .seems to know about =E2=80=98some=E2=80=99 > things=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6. > > http://www.epi-eng.com/gearbox_products/gearbox_products_contents.htm > > Marc > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Thursday, May 09, 2019 12:18 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: rotary engine psru > > > > "horrendous instantaneous torque signature" is not true and its a lot > better with a wankel than with a piston engine. Fake news, I say. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I am always amazed when asking about this subject on rotary engine PSRU= =E2=80=99s. > This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert on redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6. > > Marc > > > > Marc: > > I have not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily > because of the > > horrendous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the > difficulty in properly > > attenuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop). > > Good luck with your project. > > Sincerely, > > Jack Kane > > EPI, Inc. > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive > > > > Dave and all, > > My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so > does not need the pressure feed. Matt is too polite to tell the whole > story. The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between > the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved > bearings do --- it melted. Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive > self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the > redrive which found the cooked bronze bush. Fortunately no other damage. > This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication. Hea= t > may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell. > > Rubber cushion drive --- Matt has really copped the "pineapple" on > this. Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- > Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication between > the office and the workman doing the job. In ignorance and lack of > knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to the o= ne > I am running currently. These cushion drives will be subject to recall a= nd > the proper rubber fitted. Very embarrassing and infuriating for me. > > So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil > should work well and will simplify things. > > Neil. > > On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: > > Well said, Charlie. Here is Neil's page with diagrams: > > http://naa73x.wixsite.com/rotarpower/propeller-psru > > > > BTW, very nicely done Neil. > > > > Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, > > I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be > using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil > feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if > there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure > feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil i= s > using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game > entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, bo= th > for lube and for cooling. > > On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: > > Neil's. 3.17 ratio. > > I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well. > > - Matt Boiteau > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives? If so, it will absolutely fail > in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing. > > > > Dave Leonard. > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got > to 135=C2=B0F. > > Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June. > > - Matt Boiteau > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, > > So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from > the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your temps......=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6.Let us know what > happens...=E2=80=A6... > > > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a > breather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, > but all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in > the picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear > oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so we= nt > back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I > can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet. > > > I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) > installed in the rear housing as well. > > > > - Matt Boiteau > > On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply acte= d > as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely filled > with oil. > > Steve Boese > > > On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote: > > > > =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercis= e > caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. > > > > > > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary? > > I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to > improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was > added. > > Jeff > > > > Jeff, > > At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the > modified drain and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with > respect to power absorption or heat generation. > > > > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was > ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. Connecting > the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the > center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended. > > > > The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil > return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot. > > > > Steve Boese > > > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > [image: > https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-ani= mated-no-repeat-v1.gif] > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > --000000000000da9d1f0588785868 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Looks like he does a lot of one-off designs.=C2=A0 I see L= ee Behel's "Sweet Dreams" Chevy conversion pictured on that p= age.=C2=A0 I know Lee went through a couple of different PSRU's,=C2=A0 = not sure if EPI made the successful one that helped Lee break the Time to C= limb record (now crushed by a Rotary), or if EPI made the unsuccessful desi= gn.=C2=A0 Either way, EPI may know gears be he obviously does not know much= about a rotary.=C2=A0 The power pulses on the Rotary last for 270deg of ro= tation (vs less than 180deg for a 4-cyl) and are much much small than on an= equivalently powered 4 cyl.=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

On = Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:38 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

And this coming from this guy=E2=80=99s fi= rm =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6..seems to know about =E2=80=98some=E2=80=99 = things=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.

http://www.epi-eng.com/gearbox_products/gea= rbox_products_contents.htm

Marc=

=C2=A0

From: Rotary= motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday= , May 09, 2019 12:18 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: rotary engine psru=

=C2=A0

"horrendous instantaneous t= orque signature"=C2=A0 is not true and its a lot better with a wankel = than with a piston engine.=C2=A0 Fake news, I say.

=

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On = Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ; wrote:

I am alw= ays amazed when asking about this subject on rotary engine PSRU=E2=80=99s. = This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert on redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6= =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.

Marc

= =C2=A0

Marc:

I have not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type e= ngines, primarily because of the=C2=A0

horrendous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the diffic= ulty in properly=C2=A0

attenuating = the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop).

Good luck with your project.

Sincerely,

Jack Kane

EPI, Inc.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary = motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday= , May 08, 2019 6:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction= Drive

=C2=A0=

Dave and all,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My prop shaft is on timken taper be= arings, so does not need the pressure feed.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt is too polite = to tell the whole story.=C2=A0 The initial run did not get enough oil to th= e bronze bush between the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what= all oil starved bearings do=C2=A0=C2=A0 --- it melted.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Luckily= Matt had his rubber cushion drive self destruct as well-- I say luckily as= that caused the dismantle of the redrive which found the cooked bronze bus= h.=C2=A0 Fortunately no other damage.=C2=A0 This prompted us to make the un= it self contained as for lubrication.=C2=A0 Heat may be a problem, but I do= ubt it and time will soon tell.

Rubber cushion drive --= -=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt has really copped the "pineapple" on this.=C2= =A0 Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- Still = chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication between the off= ice and the workman doing the job.=C2=A0 In ignorance and lack of knowledge= he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to the one I am run= ning currently.=C2=A0 These cushion drives will be subject to recall and th= e proper rubber fitted.=C2=A0 Very embarrassing and infuriating for me.=C2= =A0

So as info becomes available I will post, but the = self contained oil should work well and will simplify things.=

Neil.

On 5/9/2019 8:42 = AM, David Leonard = wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:

Well sai= d, Charlie.=C2=A0 Here is Neil's page with diagrams:

=

=C2=A0

BTW,=C2=A0 very nicely do= ne Neil.

=C2=A0

Best I can tell it is a pressure= fed bearing just like Tracys.

=C2=A0

Dave Leona= rd

=C2=A0<= u>

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM C= harlie England ce= england7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Matt,

I've= not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be usin= g a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil fe= ed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you th= at if there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pr= essure feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If N= eil is using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different ga= me entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flo= w, both for lube and for cooling.

On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau = mattboiteau@gmai= l.com wrote:

Neil's. 3.17 ratio. =

I&#= 39;ve found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well.=

- Matt Boiteau

=

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:

Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?=C2=A0 If so, it wi= ll absolutely fail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing= .

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et> wrote:

So far on the ground, static 2200 = prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got to 135=C2=B0F.

Haven't fl= own yet. Will advise in June.

= - Matt Boiteau

=C2=A0=

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kell= y Troyer keltro@gmail= .com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Matt,

<= div>

=C2=A0 So you are trying using self contained lu= be with no pressure feed from the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch y= our temps......=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.Let us know what happens...=E2=80=A6...

=C2=A0

<= /div>

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:

I've been exper= imenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a breather vent= on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, but all see= ms well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in the picture w= as only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear oil 70w-14= 0 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so went back down= to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I can go a l= ittle less, haven't tested the idle level yet.


I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sens= or (half way) installed in the rear housing as well.

=C2=A0

- Ma= tt Boiteau

On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 = PM, Steven W. Boese SB= oese@uwyo.edu <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

If the original return line was not enlarged, the "ve= nt" line simply acted as an additional return line and my gearboxes op= erated completely filled with oil.

Steve Boese

> On May = 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:
>
> =E2=97=86 This messa= ge was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when clicking = links or opening attachments from external sources.
>
>
&= gt; Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?
> I thou= ght you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to improve drain= ing, only to find no improvement until the vent line was added.
> Je= ff
>
> Jeff,
> At this point I have only 3 hr of fligh= t time on the gearbox with the modified drain and vent. I have not observed= a significant effect with respect to power absorption or heat generation. =
>
> Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing= was ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. Connect= ing the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the c= enter iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended.
>
> The = most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil return to 1= /2" NPT in the rotor housing foot.
>
> Steve Boese
&= gt;
>
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and= UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html

--
Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
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Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0ht= tp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= /p>


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