X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=y4ksPuwiWHPUMemHezaSSw==:117 a=xycr6CVXJRVtFs4WRGOeRA==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=x2ruqFfzAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=Gzu5-su_aygCL6LbBYoA:9 a=cN5gG0N2XzZb4JAn:21 a=Yd53TI-y1x41bu1h:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=DLSOBNa8jVQA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=fpo8X3vhGUUemhVAUekA:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=-dxkKV7EQHucoCxU:21 a=6wk0x1IZFRWwTsTY:21 a=TK7huTIlgWPr3Dhp:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=NrvK4TCbR5S6hO5fgSYU:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net" Received: from [47.43.20.27] (HELO impout003.msg.chrl.nc.charter.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12546029 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 May 2019 13:38:14 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=47.43.20.27; envelope-from=cardmarc@charter.net Received: from HomeDesktop ([97.94.202.172]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id OmzVh54DOnJPnOmzVh0kCv; Thu, 09 May 2019 17:37:57 +0000 Authentication-Results: charter.net; none X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=aafVYigt c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xycr6CVXJRVtFs4WRGOeRA==:117 a=xycr6CVXJRVtFs4WRGOeRA==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=x2ruqFfzAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=Gzu5-su_aygCL6LbBYoA:9 a=cN5gG0N2XzZb4JAn:21 a=Yd53TI-y1x41bu1h:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=DLSOBNa8jVQA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=fpo8X3vhGUUemhVAUekA:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=-dxkKV7EQHucoCxU:21 a=6wk0x1IZFRWwTsTY:21 a=TK7huTIlgWPr3Dhp:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=NrvK4TCbR5S6hO5fgSYU:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: rotary engine psru Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 12:37:57 -0500 Message-ID: <016501d5068d$f0ab9630$d202c290$@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0166_01D50664.07DCBA20" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQI6JOYh2TiiyIeiugHsdxciy0PThKWY0Z2g Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDXZu27MFuSVQCnyrJoKhSSx9lPitC+wvoWPzbeRyr/AVPrjdbvl7BUCmK2gCewbtnSbkNkqH/8zLxmslBj661VFGxzDWen6kKREG3pIVEj8s1z4YRu5 Ig54IyG8j0eCvK+KASvS6BDAAtBe56KZq2Iwv4+R6vhVdBTg1r20zjv9GsFfKDbK+v+AYKHCC1NpvA== This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0166_01D50664.07DCBA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And this coming from this guy=E2=80=99s firm = =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6..seems to know about =E2=80=98some=E2=80=99 = things=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6. http://www.epi-eng.com/gearbox_products/gearbox_products_contents.htm Marc =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 12:18 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: rotary engine psru =20 "horrendous instantaneous torque signature" is not true and its a lot = better with a wankel than with a piston engine. Fake news, I say. =20 Dave Leonard =20 =20 On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net = > wrote: I am always amazed when asking about this subject on rotary engine = PSRU=E2=80=99s. This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert on = redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6. Marc =20 Marc: I have not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily = because of the=20 horrendous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the = difficulty in properly=20 attenuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop). Good luck with your project. Sincerely, Jack Kane EPI, Inc. =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive =20 Dave and all, My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so = does not need the pressure feed. Matt is too polite to tell the whole = story. The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush = between the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil = starved bearings do --- it melted. Luckily Matt had his rubber = cushion drive self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the = dismantle of the redrive which found the cooked bronze bush. = Fortunately no other damage. This prompted us to make the unit self = contained as for lubrication. Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and = time will soon tell. Rubber cushion drive --- Matt has really copped the "pineapple" on = this. Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- = Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication = between the office and the workman doing the job. In ignorance and lack = of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to = the one I am running currently. These cushion drives will be subject to = recall and the proper rubber fitted. Very embarrassing and infuriating = for me. =20 So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil = should work well and will simplify things. Neil. On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = wrote: Well said, Charlie. Here is Neil's page with diagrams:=20 http://naa73x.wixsite.com/rotarpower/propeller-psru =20 BTW, very nicely done Neil. =20 Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys. =20 Dave Leonard =20 On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com = > wrote: Matt, I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be = using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil = feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if = there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure = feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil = is using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game = entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, = both for lube and for cooling. On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com = wrote: Neil's. 3.17 ratio.=20 I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well. - Matt Boiteau=20 =20 On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = > wrote: Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives? If so, it will absolutely = fail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing.=20 =20 Dave Leonard. =20 On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com = > wrote: So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got = to 135=C2=B0F. Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June. - Matt Boiteau=20 =20 On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Matt, So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from = the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your = temps......=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.Let us know what happens...=E2=80=A6... =20 Kelly Troyer=20 =20 On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com = > wrote: I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a = breather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, = but all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in = the picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran = gear oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, = so went back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but = I think I can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet.=20 I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) = installed in the rear housing as well. =20 - Matt Boiteau On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu = > wrote: If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply = acted as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely = filled with oil.=20 Steve Boese=20 > On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com = wrote:=20 >=20 > =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please = exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from = external sources.=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?=20 > I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to = improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was = added.=20 > Jeff=20 >=20 > Jeff,=20 > At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the = modified drain and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with = respect to power absorption or heat generation.=20 >=20 > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was = ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. = Connecting the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the = top of the center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended.=20 >=20 > The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil = return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot.=20 >=20 > Steve Boese=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20 =20 = =20 Virus-free. = = www.avast.com=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0166_01D50664.07DCBA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And this coming from this = guy=E2=80=99s firm =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6..seems to know about = =E2=80=98some=E2=80=99 = things=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.

http://www.epi-eng.com/gearbox_products/gearbox_products_contents.h= tm

Marc

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, = 2019 12:18 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = rotary engine psru

 

"horrendous instantaneous torque = signature"  is not true and its a lot better with a wankel = than with a piston engine.  Fake news, I = say.

 

Dave Leonard  

 

On = Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

 <= /o:p>

Dave and = all,

        &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;    My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does = not need the pressure feed.   Matt is too polite to tell the = whole story.  The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze = bush between the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all = oil starved bearings do   --- it melted.   Luckily = Matt had his rubber cushion drive self destruct as well-- I say luckily = as that caused the dismantle of the redrive which found the cooked = bronze bush.  Fortunately no other damage.  This prompted us = to make the unit self contained as for lubrication.  Heat may be a = problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell.

Rubber = cushion drive ---   Matt has really copped the = "pineapple" on this.  Finally turns out that the rubber = firm used the wrong rubber --- Still chasing that problem down but = appears lack of communication between the office and the workman doing = the job.  In ignorance and lack of knowledge he put the wrong = rubber in--- totally different rubber to the one I am running = currently.  These cushion drives will be subject to recall and the = proper rubber fitted.  Very embarrassing and infuriating for = me. 

So as info becomes available I will post, = but the self contained oil should work well and will simplify = things.

Neil.

On 5/9/2019 = 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = wrote:

Well said, = Charlie.  Here is Neil's page with diagrams:

 <= /o:p>

BTW,  = very nicely done Neil.

 <= /o:p>

Best I can = tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like = Tracys.

 <= /o:p>

Dave = Leonard

 <= /o:p>

On Wed, May = 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Matt,
I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be = using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil = feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if = there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure = feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil = is using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game = entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, = both for lube and for cooling.

On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau = mattboiteau@gmail.com = wrote:

Neil's. = 3.17 ratio.

I've found the = back gears push the oil to the front pretty well.

- Matt = Boiteau

 <= /o:p>

On Wed, May = 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Matt, is = this one of Tracy Crooks drives?  If so, it will absolutely fail in = short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing. =

 <= /o:p>

Dave = Leonard.

 <= /o:p>

On Wed, May = 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

So far on the = ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got to = 135=C2=B0F.

Haven't flown yet. Will advise in = June.

- Matt = Boiteau

 <= /o:p>

On Wed, May = 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Matt,

  So = you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from the = engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your = temps......=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.Let us know what = happens...=E2=80=A6...

 <= /o:p>

Kelly = Troyer 

 <= /o:p>

On Tue, May = 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

I've been = experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a breather = vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, but all = seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in the = picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear = oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so = went back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I = think I can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet. =


I have a = temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) installed = in the rear housing as well.

 

- Matt = Boiteau

O= n 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

If the = original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply = acted as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely = filled with oil.

Steve Boese

> On May 7, 2019, at = 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:
>
> = =E2=97=86 This message = was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when clicking = links or opening attachments from external sources.
>
> =
> Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary? =
> I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting = it to improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line = was added.
> Jeff
>
> Jeff,
> At this point = I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the modified drain = and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with respect to power = absorption or heat generation.
>
> Connecting the vent = line to the foot of the rotor housing was ineffective even though this = location was above the oil level. Connecting the vent line to the area = of the oil filler opening at the top of the center iron allowed the = gearbox to drain as intended.
>
> The most troublesome = part of the modification was enlarging the oil return to 1/2" NPT = in the rotor housing foot.
>
> Steve Boese
> =
>
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and = UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml

--
Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml

--
Homepa= ge:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

V= irus-free. www.avast.com

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