X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xivke4fp8nJ/KrVwOQ8OBQ==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=oSMvVwY2MYMA:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=9Tu_JfCLKQX3FgeV6QIA:9 a=YF5lP23irobmP8VJ:21 a=Z1yvg2dK2KjIhOT5:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=fpo8X3vhGUUemhVAUekA:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=Fvr6vR1xnNx9MAVw:21 a=JFh8qndG1_yr_BpS:21 a=MM-ResP_6zF_SrlQ:21 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com" Received: from mail-qt1-f176.google.com ([209.85.160.176] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12546005 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 May 2019 13:18:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.160.176; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-qt1-f176.google.com with SMTP id m32so348175qtf.0 for ; Thu, 09 May 2019 10:18:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=FhaZ11UGMEMQlm1vxJ4HEwZoDZUIizK5z+bR9cp1j5g=; b=c0nwa4izetAdcJ9MHGLfhEBQn9X2p6hQCa3RXLwtF8qK9sOMNQ3HZDbvuATRadxoyw lQviNp/ihxgZ2JlqhOrn0SyaOUPF0qTgn4u23HVJRZLy1JlP6D88iX9QXy+bX3PU+GJq bd6N56O9xYOWQwVp60sgHSL7B2a3D9tVXZYsAv6zkYQsMeOUFPzfO7tZ6oHRql1ZRYk4 a6i55WVy/WDQdMh6MYZiTuFPywuiedkqynv+XyC0vdDM3eVPLrTawDfPnvBiCRA8lAbb ccODFRNJmZEfO4wJ+PeJLTpcFTPlofKtPLmO0MHe8OJgsBG5bUADJ3M3LjyuvGRJ4T2y WUOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=FhaZ11UGMEMQlm1vxJ4HEwZoDZUIizK5z+bR9cp1j5g=; b=UKBiM4LFhB2LHB4q9VxsEMqfpx2rDQdF919kOB0pTDD2zqSxXPMSBvVxCaEJjs8Sxa ia9mgc3+NRae90gLvy43uVHlKhyHmSz6oEX+27pmcwNwLDoDH46Us+beWBqKnsCwcEae qZxzAZFzlKTcMoS0k5eoYIrLypuCUMqJemfcnmFHgav0O5ZIC554sSA0FLFbPS3MYgWF oloxMyK0TcJxgzyfreArRUWAIAJU80lHAKNDVWHMdT718NnY6hzymm6eWRSkuOiL2i2h 1ZocI8sRJE/o6mBxCukimHNehAbcXpSVkqC7dretWbdWSBUFvdV8iYpY1/M6Par8LbQl E2MQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVsZOCQsqsF04v2WPLvh2Gk3Fe3rnzWH8uSxlvIOsPQc/438pa5 seYAwonOoF1MNwB9P2iv84ppUTorkxTjakQBnoiOVAx+ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyCRdmGcliJwzN6N6ZS/JiFTihTjYkfN1decQZLpCKGzkMlsvg0WR9deBVTyr+70/hsZNCDjb8s9KYrR2xm7bk= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:3524:: with SMTP id y33mr4664440qtb.159.1557422302546; Thu, 09 May 2019 10:18:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 10:18:10 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] rotary engine psru To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001bd174058877a3f2" --0000000000001bd174058877a3f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "horrendous instantaneous torque signature" is not true and its a lot better with a wankel than with a piston engine. Fake news, I say. Dave Leonard On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > I am always amazed when asking about this subject on rotary engine PSRU= =E2=80=99s. > This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert on redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6. > > Marc > > > > Marc: > > I have not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily > because of the > > horrendous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the > difficulty in properly > > attenuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop). > > Good luck with your project. > > Sincerely, > > Jack Kane > > EPI, Inc. > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive > > > > Dave and all, > > My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so > does not need the pressure feed. Matt is too polite to tell the whole > story. The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between > the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved > bearings do --- it melted. Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive > self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the > redrive which found the cooked bronze bush. Fortunately no other damage. > This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication. Hea= t > may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell. > > Rubber cushion drive --- Matt has really copped the "pineapple" on > this. Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- > Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication between > the office and the workman doing the job. In ignorance and lack of > knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to the o= ne > I am running currently. These cushion drives will be subject to recall a= nd > the proper rubber fitted. Very embarrassing and infuriating for me. > > So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil > should work well and will simplify things. > > Neil. > > On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: > > Well said, Charlie. Here is Neil's page with diagrams: > > http://naa73x.wixsite.com/rotarpower/propeller-psru > > > > BTW, very nicely done Neil. > > > > Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys. > > > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, > > I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be > using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil > feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if > there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure > feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil i= s > using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game > entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, bo= th > for lube and for cooling. > > On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: > > Neil's. 3.17 ratio. > > I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well. > > - Matt Boiteau > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives? If so, it will absolutely fail > in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing. > > > > Dave Leonard. > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got > to 135=C2=B0F. > > Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June. > > - Matt Boiteau > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Matt, > > So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from > the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your temps......=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6.Let us know what > happens...=E2=80=A6... > > > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a > breather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, > but all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in > the picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear > oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so we= nt > back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I > can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet. > > > I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) > installed in the rear housing as well. > > > > - Matt Boiteau > > On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply acte= d > as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely filled > with oil. > > Steve Boese > > > On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote: > > > > =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercis= e > caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. > > > > > > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary? > > I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to > improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was > added. > > Jeff > > > > Jeff, > > At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the > modified drain and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with > respect to power absorption or heat generation. > > > > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was > ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. Connecting > the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the > center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended. > > > > The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil > return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot. > > > > Steve Boese > > > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > [image: > https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-ani= mated-no-repeat-v1.gif] > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > --0000000000001bd174058877a3f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"horrendous instanta= neous torque signature"=C2=A0 is not true and its a lot better with a = wankel than with a piston engine.=C2=A0 Fake news, I say.

Dave Leonard=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:25 AM M= arc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net = <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net> wrote:

I am always amazed when asking about this subject on = rotary engine PSRU=E2=80=99s. This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert = on redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.

Ma= rc

=C2=A0

Marc:

I have not done any PSRU = systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily because of the=C2=A0

horren= dous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the difficulty in pr= operly=C2=A0

attenuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and p= rop).

Good luck with your project.

Sincerely,

Jack Kane

EPI, Inc.

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subj= ect: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive

=C2=A0

Dave and al= l,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does not n= eed the pressure feed.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt is too polite to tell the whole sto= ry.=C2=A0 The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between= the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bear= ings do=C2=A0=C2=A0 --- it melted.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Luckily Matt had his rubber = cushion drive self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dism= antle of the redrive which found the cooked bronze bush.=C2=A0 Fortunately = no other damage.=C2=A0 This prompted us to make the unit self contained as = for lubrication.=C2=A0 Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will = soon tell.

Rubber cushion drive ---=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt ha= s really copped the "pineapple" on this.=C2=A0 Finally turns out = that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- Still chasing that problem d= own but appears lack of communication between the office and the workman do= ing the job.=C2=A0 In ignorance and lack of knowledge he put the wrong rubb= er in--- totally different rubber to the one I am running currently.=C2=A0 = These cushion drives will be subject to recall and the proper rubber fitted= .=C2=A0 Very embarrassing and infuriating for me.=C2=A0

<= p>So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil shou= ld work well and will simplify things.

Neil.<= /u>

On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com= wrote:

Well said, Charlie.=C2=A0 Here = is Neil's page with diagrams:

=C2=A0

<= div>

BTW,=C2=A0 very nicely done Neil.<= /p>

=C2=A0

Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like = Tracys.

=C2=A0=

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com= <flyro= tary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Matt,

I've not followe= d Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be using a sleeve b= earing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil feed hole in t= he 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if there&= #39;s a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure feedi= ng, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil is using= a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game entirely,= and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, both for = lube and for cooling.

On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wr= ote:

Neil's. 3.17 ratio. <= /p>

I've found = the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well.

- Matt Boiteau

=

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?=C2=A0 If so, it wi= ll absolutely fail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing= .

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">So far on the ground, st= atic 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got to 135=C2=B0F.

Have= n't flown yet. Will advise in June.

- Matt Boiteau

= =C2=A0

On Wed, May 8, 2019, = 00:09 Kelly Troyer ke= ltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Matt,

=C2=A0 So you are trying usi= ng self contained lube with no pressure feed from the engine and no drain..= .=E2=80=A6...Watch your temps......=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.Let us know what happ= ens...=E2=80=A6...

=C2=A0

Kelly Troyer=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau= mattboiteau@gma= il.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I've been ex= perimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a breather v= ent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, but all = seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in the pictur= e was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear oil 70w= -140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so went back d= own to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I can go = a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet. =


I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level s= ensor (half way) installed in the rear housing as well.

=C2=A0

= - Matt Boiteau

On 2019-05-07 12:32= :26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

If the original return line was not enlarged, the &quo= t;vent" line simply acted as an additional return line and my gearboxe= s operated completely filled with oil.

Steve Boese

> On = May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:
>
> =E2=97= =86 This= message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when cli= cking links or opening attachments from external sources.
>
>=
> Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?
> = I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to improve= draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was added.
&= gt; Jeff
>
> Jeff,
> At this point I have only 3 hr of= flight time on the gearbox with the modified drain and vent. I have not ob= served a significant effect with respect to power absorption or heat genera= tion.
>
> Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor h= ousing was ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. C= onnecting the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of= the center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended.
>
>= ; The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil retur= n to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot.
>
> Steve Boese=
>
>
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archi= ve and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotar= y/List.html

--
Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= u>

--<= br>Homepage:=C2=A0 = http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=


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