X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=z9h4IXdmUi/YXTd3F3WVTA==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=Fee85h93u3AA:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=z2Oa3MaGnsEA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=9hUOOPNcld7bTQBO8pQA:9 a=RxLNNyCLVUyPYzMT:21 a=f7Zjgi5Y_pOUEPzK:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=WGH_8ZkYY3e2MQ6i:21 a=Oj_K26kOet1dejID:21 a=pti7_IZYzkuIYKyT:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "lehanover lehanover@aol.com" Received: from sonic314-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12545976 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 May 2019 13:05:12 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.6.132.123; envelope-from=lehanover@aol.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1557421496; bh=IoAxCq+3A++aFEmfteiew6PBtzBHDFfpgbAS0rDuPnc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=VmmH+Y3pyP4JM6xEt4SxVBaOH/JUB/37z88CiW9JaVjZIUK9IrA5+lXnpsKZTGtw1yknUakj84xSvnR99tNOGnGViNqvTInAYskcbY5gPFXAx6ngxucKA8qk2HsBorU/TpkCb7C0JW4thA/XuT2QS5FR/dFiRN3arJ/TyEqzGIAVlPeLZ8VDg1P+nIaw7WcGFeJy7mMsnRmNOGIllieECCU8U11JmGmWBeQTALtxhH//peLT0wYLKMYHIZMtU7j+DXL+qUKOmN9XBfh/ZX+MzaY0ghv+BDb2BM0qooej15IB7cDwH+EglL4NSYjlCU1sOTkElcb/T7+HAUUtRAgS7A== X-YMail-OSG: BV_Or3oVM1k6H_oRGXUm6eaHgBy5jI6nsnWJNSbRYEHGB7bC6RDKvx10J12BBBb gpb8UbYPjOIrqGZxNJ_T1Q9aHfDOj5W5kt9RlEqYFfY67SXGwfDed5nzNoMNjimzECEXNRTNOuf2 2QDWdgCYTuxWFNoM_N6gAQnW5FclCONagsw82qQ4dUPKFuBtwtIFAoB9D4V2CbZvWHoSfbDgvbKN X8F2G8B7h4oWTubKy52sUKvXnQbe45o1xQ6WFjkIDe3VV0epuRU57gnjF5s2tYDPO9xAdx8UjyS. _gzay1aThOcIA.qir3BtespDDUHvvHEkprwEuIiMzBISZy20_9svCCQ5VE86AJyh..5UqiX4A75i mIYP9z6hYZ9FDHTrB_92BWADUBSkvse87L0T.nIi3PSsUBjd59WyoTm0eq9mhTeI4n7gf0Y.C.Vg KbUVT5dPu9WB3C1_Ro9ECdkEaOYou2V_hm8jAhpvOhcpZKpc9o3MEOGKyX.efb53FwwEoY8b3TIr UPnqz6DDqW6tAD9CrKCPoTitwymWJEUrkl0P1BzoiNhcs_CxV7qXM5h0ikWPKMVFTG3jrsIhrIYY sxwifrKum7HFgQAX3A._6Adas5ZgzbPRyhTi9bYzcHlnr5Ln_zd0R4EwkOaNmefwrPH8E5CEigvN HQudFiZAkwInylCi1cmitqXIwff7im6S9T7MHDq7aedA7LDe_ojFsBarTCJAbH6upPRNIPw7b3VG 6F6fBf1omDIUQzCYQ7wQ2tQaYrbfKfZX2G8YUZxSoi8DzENkEDRzSIpAxGwJcq8.S48NPu3SVVSX L1y3xIpJ4gD317_yTG5QQznIIra4S8G9n6G1pqylopz0m1h5Y6zksX9ObSJAG4RrTqrq36Zy.hds k7u4W6faQeQWfnm0NEgwNrlBUqLy27d.beKHrCiIDGRK7UzJgCXaEOdqhjfsS_.u6rBg5_ASPlI9 qv3kMjhyL9hDU9vExou3iC11ibk83Scvo.rf_w_D2iFRxO7HT_4KoEJf7aQkyOGzlwRwwKPEbF1v tETJ0uNR2cvVX5WIl8t03M0BG4jZe5g2JXIY7_yNUasGpmyrggHQJAfQ2O5y37R5jgoLMT02FVJx fatz3_ArwvQXTWToV084VGCJnnvZ9BjpS0bQ- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 9 May 2019 17:04:56 +0000 Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 17:04:55 +0000 (UTC) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message-ID: <1353988526.2144803.1557421495358@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2144802_151804590.1557421495353" References: <1353988526.2144803.1557421495358.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.13583 aolloki Apache-HttpClient/4.5.7 (Java/1.8.0_144) Content-Length: 22987 ------=_Part_2144802_151804590.1557421495353 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When racing with the stock Mazda trans we often lost the tailshaft bushing.= I cut a new bushing in half and pressed them in with a small space between= the two pieces. I put in a tapered pipe hole between the two for pressure = oiling. I used a double lip Garlock seal and made up three "U" shaped clamp= s to keep the seals in place. And the Garlocks prevented the bushing from w= alking out of the housing when it got hot. The oil pump put the oil through= a cooler to keep that bushing cool. When we started using the Richmond Gea= r trans I did the same mods to it. Never a problem. Once one of those bushi= ng starts rotating with the shaft it will wear the hole bigger and ruin the= housing. If you must use a bushing, think of a way to pin that bushing in = place. Even a tight press fit will let go of the bushing if the housing is = overheated. Many a Mazda trans has died this way. A synthetic trans lube will foam less and then return drain better. Much be= tter if the engine oil is being used in the reduction unit as well. We used= RedLine racing 40 weight. Pours like lighter fluid. Never an oil related f= ailure in 30 years. Rotaries have an oil foaming problem. Foam is air and o= il mixed. Air is an insulator. So, oil cooling is much improved with a synthetic. In the Mistral Piper, they used aircraft oil. It foamed badly and reduced t= he effectiveness of the coolers, thus over heating the oil. Never made it t= o Sun&Fun.Just a few thoughts......................Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 5/8/2019 7:11:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes: Dave and all, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My pr= op shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does not need the pressure feed.= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt is too polite to tell the whole story.=C2=A0 The initial = run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between the input shaft and t= he prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bearings do=C2=A0=C2=A0 --= - it melted.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive self des= truct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the redrive w= hich found the cooked bronze bush.=C2=A0 Fortunately no other damage.=C2=A0= This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication.=C2=A0= Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell. Rubber cushion drive ---=C2=A0=C2=A0 Matt has really copped the "pineapple"= on this.=C2=A0 Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubbe= r --- Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication bet= ween the office and the workman doing the job.=C2=A0 In ignorance and lack = of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to the = one I am running currently.=C2=A0 These cushion drives will be subject to r= ecall and the proper rubber fitted.=C2=A0 Very embarrassing and infuriating= for me.=C2=A0=20 So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil should= work well and will simplify things. Neil. On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: Well said, Charlie.=C2=A0 Here is Neil's page with diagrams:http://naa73x.w= ixsite.com/rotarpower/propeller-psru BTW,=C2=A0 very nicely done Neil. Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys. Dave Leonard On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote: Matt, I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be usin= g a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil feed h= ole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if there's a = sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure feeding, lack of = oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil is using a ball or r= oller bearing back there, that's a different game entirely, and I'd want hi= s input on whether it needs pressurized flow, both for lube and for cooling= . On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: Neil's. 3.17 ratio.I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pret= ty well. - Matt Boiteau On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?=C2=A0 If so, it will absolutely f= ail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing. Dave Leonard. On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got to= 135=C2=B0F. Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June. - Matt Boiteau On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: Matt,=C2=A0 So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure fe= ed from the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your temps......=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6.Let us know what happens...=E2=80=A6... Kelly Troyer On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote: I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a br= eather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, but = all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in the pi= cture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear oil 70w= -140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so went back d= own to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I can go = a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet. I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) inst= alled in the rear housing as well. - Matt Boiteau On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu wrote: If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply acted = as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely filled wi= th oil.=20 Steve Boese=20 > On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:=20 >=20 > =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise = caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.= =20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?=20 > I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to impro= ve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was added.=20 > Jeff=20 >=20 > Jeff,=20 > At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the mod= ified drain and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with respect= to power absorption or heat generation.=20 >=20 > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was ineffective= even though this location was above the oil level. Connecting the vent lin= e to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the center iron allow= ed the gearbox to drain as intended.=20 >=20 > The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil retur= n to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot.=20 >=20 > Steve Boese=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.ht= ml -- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyro= tary/List.html | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | ------=_Part_2144802_151804590.1557421495353 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When racing with the stock Mazda trans we often lost = the tailshaft bushing. I cut a new bushing in half and pressed them in with= a small space between the two pieces. I put in a tapered pipe hole between= the two for pressure oiling. I used a double lip Garlock seal and made up = three "U" shaped clamps to keep the seals in place. And the Garlocks preven= ted the bushing from walking out of the housing when it got hot. The oil pu= mp put the oil through a cooler to keep that bushing cool. When we started = using the Richmond Gear trans I did the same mods to it. Never a problem. O= nce one of those bushing starts rotating with the shaft it will wear the ho= le bigger and ruin the housing. If you must use a bushing, think of a way t= o pin that bushing in place. Even a tight press fit will let go of the bush= ing if the housing is overheated. Many a Mazda trans has died this way.

A synthetic trans lube will foam less and then return= drain better. Much better if the engine oil is being used in the reduction= unit as well. We used RedLine racing 40 weight. Pours like lighter fluid. = Never an oil related failure in 30 years. Rotaries have an oil foaming prob= lem. Foam is air and oil mixed. Air is an insulator.
So, oil cooling is much improved with a synthetic.

In the Mistral Piper, they used aircraft oil. It foam= ed badly and reduced the effectiveness of the coolers, thus over heating th= e oil. Never made it to Sun&Fun.
Just a few thoughts......................Lynn E. Hano= ver

In a message dated 5/8/2019 7:11:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lan= caironline.net writes:

Dave and all,

            =              My= prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does not need the pressure feed= .   Matt is too polite to tell the whole story.  The initial= run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between the input shaft and = the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bearings do   -= -- it melted.   Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive self de= struct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the redrive = which found the cooked bronze bush.  Fortunately no other damage. = ; This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication. = ; Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell.

Rubber cushion drive ---   Matt has really copped the "pineapp= le" on this.  Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong ru= bber --- Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication = between the office and the workman doing the job.  In ignorance and la= ck of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to t= he one I am running currently.  These cushion drives will be subject t= o recall and the proper rubber fitted.  Very embarrassing and infuriat= ing for me. 

So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil sho= uld work well and will simplify things.

Neil.

On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leon= ard wdleonard@gma= il.com wrote:
Well said, Charlie.  Here is Neil's page with diagram= s:

BTW,  very nicely done Neil.

Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys.

Dave Leonard

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3= :35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Matt= ,

I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may no= t be using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that o= il feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if t= here's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure feeding,= lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil is using a = ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game entirely, and I'= d want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, both for lube and fo= r cooling.

On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau= @gmail.com wrote:
Neil's. 3.17 ratio.
I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well.
- Matt Boiteau

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:= 13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?  If so, it will absolut= ely fail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing.

Dave Leonard.

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:0= 3 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only g= ot to 135°F.

Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June.

- Matt Boiteau

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:= 09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Matt,
  So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure fe= ed from the engine and no drain...…...Watch your temps......…= ….Let us know what happens...…...

Kelly Troyer

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 1= 0:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding= a breather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing,= but all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in t= he picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear oi= l 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so went b= ack down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I ca= n go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet.

I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half = way) installed in the rear housing as well.

- Matt Boiteau

On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, S= teven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net> wrote:

If the original r= eturn line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply acted as an additional = return line and my gearboxes operated completely filled with oil.

S= teve Boese

> On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley = jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:
>
> =E2=97=86 This message wa= s sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when clicking links= or opening attachments from external sources.
>
>
> H= i Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?
> I thought y= ou first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to improve draining, = only to find no improvement until the vent line was added.
> Jeff >
> Jeff,
> At this point I have only 3 hr of flight tim= e on the gearbox with the modified drain and vent. I have not observed a si= gnificant effect with respect to power absorption or heat generation.
&= gt;
> Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was = ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. Connecting t= he vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the center= iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended.
>
> The most = troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil return to 1/2" N= PT in the rotor housing foot.
>
> Steve Boese
>
&g= t;
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://= mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

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