X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=v94Pv+chFH3UF6xAKMB2EQ==:117 a=xycr6CVXJRVtFs4WRGOeRA==:17 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=9hUOOPNcld7bTQBO8pQA:9 a=NfeHFmbePeAcy3U4:21 a=clxk_hbu2SsM8GIn:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=E-FuAb0w-kj8eWCMlioA:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=d-PJH_D9YhWO5XnC:21 a=Vcqa_hVzFIVx51Jj:21 a=YALz3OJdzhDrwh2o:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Marc Wiese cardmarc@charter.net" Received: from [47.43.20.25] (HELO impout001.msg.chrl.nc.charter.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12545868 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 May 2019 12:25:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=47.43.20.25; envelope-from=cardmarc@charter.net Received: from HomeDesktop ([97.94.202.172]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id Olr8hsaARr4ugOlr8hKMIV; Thu, 09 May 2019 16:25:14 +0000 Authentication-Results: charter.net; none X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Xco9M7x5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xycr6CVXJRVtFs4WRGOeRA==:117 a=xycr6CVXJRVtFs4WRGOeRA==:17 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=9hUOOPNcld7bTQBO8pQA:9 a=NfeHFmbePeAcy3U4:21 a=clxk_hbu2SsM8GIn:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=E-FuAb0w-kj8eWCMlioA:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=d-PJH_D9YhWO5XnC:21 a=Vcqa_hVzFIVx51Jj:21 a=YALz3OJdzhDrwh2o:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: rotary engine psru Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 11:25:14 -0500 Message-ID: <00ec01d50683$c8405780$58c10680$@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00ED_01D50659.DF6CC080" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdUGg6bNTYvJo2yTT5muVsgjiLpmHQ== Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfAa+zhUvojZ6HnPZCkqblh2dIAuIqzkrFTl196lKnvWT58AYsQlxnHYGtlJqGTKc+S0NXldFB4j3zKWqI8OrU87EEcSD4Lq34dK9QAyBUdvy+nGB5s2T MnsYN2/Iz0QB8yT0N+JRjkxWrjV7VVT740EYoB5TExduS2ouA07ZrbBWnWmzggK5HR2tBz8b+OasRA== This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01D50659.DF6CC080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am always amazed when asking about this subject on rotary engine = PSRU=E2=80=99s. This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert on = redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6. Marc =20 Marc: I have not done any PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily = because of the=20 horrendous instantaneous torque signature they exhibit, thus the = difficulty in properly=20 attenuating the excitation pulses into the gearbox (and prop). Good luck with your project. Sincerely, Jack Kane EPI, Inc. =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive =20 Dave and all, My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so = does not need the pressure feed. Matt is too polite to tell the whole = story. The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush = between the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil = starved bearings do --- it melted. Luckily Matt had his rubber = cushion drive self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the = dismantle of the redrive which found the cooked bronze bush. = Fortunately no other damage. This prompted us to make the unit self = contained as for lubrication. Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and = time will soon tell. Rubber cushion drive --- Matt has really copped the "pineapple" on = this. Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- = Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication = between the office and the workman doing the job. In ignorance and lack = of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to = the one I am running currently. These cushion drives will be subject to = recall and the proper rubber fitted. Very embarrassing and infuriating = for me. =20 So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil = should work well and will simplify things. Neil. On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = wrote: Well said, Charlie. Here is Neil's page with diagrams:=20 http://naa73x.wixsite.com/rotarpower/propeller-psru =20 BTW, very nicely done Neil. =20 Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys. =20 Dave Leonard =20 On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com = > wrote: Matt, I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be = using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil = feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if = there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure = feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil = is using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game = entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, = both for lube and for cooling. On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com = wrote: Neil's. 3.17 ratio.=20 I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well. - Matt Boiteau=20 =20 On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = > wrote: Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives? If so, it will absolutely = fail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing.=20 =20 Dave Leonard. =20 On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com = > wrote: So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got = to 135=C2=B0F. Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June. - Matt Boiteau=20 =20 On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: Matt, So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from = the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch your = temps......=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.Let us know what happens...=E2=80=A6... =20 Kelly Troyer=20 =20 On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com = > wrote: I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a = breather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, = but all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in = the picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran = gear oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, = so went back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but = I think I can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet.=20 I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) = installed in the rear housing as well. =20 - Matt Boiteau On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu = > wrote: If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply = acted as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely = filled with oil.=20 Steve Boese=20 > On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com = wrote:=20 >=20 > =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please = exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from = external sources.=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?=20 > I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to = improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was = added.=20 > Jeff=20 >=20 > Jeff,=20 > At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the = modified drain and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with = respect to power absorption or heat generation.=20 >=20 > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was = ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. = Connecting the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the = top of the center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended.=20 >=20 > The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil = return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot.=20 >=20 > Steve Boese=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20 =20 = =20 Virus-free. = = www.avast.com=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01D50659.DF6CC080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am = always amazed when asking about this subject on rotary engine = PSRU=E2=80=99s. This from EPI, the maker and supposed expert on = redrives=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.

Marc

 

Marc:

I have not done any = PSRU systems for Wankel-type engines, primarily because of = the 

horrendous instantaneous torque signature = they exhibit, thus the difficulty in = properly 

attenuating the excitation pulses into the = gearbox (and prop).

Good luck with your = project.

Sincerely,

Jack = Kane

EPI, Inc.

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, = 2019 6:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Venting the Reduction Drive

 

Dave and = all,

        &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;    My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does = not need the pressure feed.   Matt is too polite to tell the = whole story.  The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze = bush between the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all = oil starved bearings do   --- it melted.   Luckily = Matt had his rubber cushion drive self destruct as well-- I say luckily = as that caused the dismantle of the redrive which found the cooked = bronze bush.  Fortunately no other damage.  This prompted us = to make the unit self contained as for lubrication.  Heat may be a = problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell.

Rubber = cushion drive ---   Matt has really copped the = "pineapple" on this.  Finally turns out that the rubber = firm used the wrong rubber --- Still chasing that problem down but = appears lack of communication between the office and the workman doing = the job.  In ignorance and lack of knowledge he put the wrong = rubber in--- totally different rubber to the one I am running = currently.  These cushion drives will be subject to recall and the = proper rubber fitted.  Very embarrassing and infuriating for = me. 

So as info becomes available I will post, = but the self contained oil should work well and will simplify = things.

Neil.

On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com = wrote:

Well said, Charlie.  Here is Neil's page with = diagrams:

 

BTW,  very nicely done = Neil.

 

Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like = Tracys.

 

Dave Leonard

 

On = Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Neil's. 3.17 ratio.

I've found the back = gears push the oil to the front pretty well.

- Matt Boiteau

 

On = Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?  If so, = it will absolutely fail in short order with no pressure feed to the main = bearing.

 

Dave Leonard.

 

On = Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

So far on the ground, static 2200 prop = rpm for 30seconds, temps only got to 135=C2=B0F.

Haven't flown = yet. Will advise in June.

- Matt = Boiteau

 

On = Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Matt,

  So you are trying using self contained lube = with no pressure feed from the engine and no drain...=E2=80=A6...Watch = your temps......=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.Let us know what = happens...=E2=80=A6...

 

Kelly Troyer 

 

On = Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

I've been = experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a breather = vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, but all = seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in the = picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear = oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so = went back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I = think I can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet. =


I have a = temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) installed = in the rear housing as well.

 

- Matt = Boiteau

O= n 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

If the = original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply = acted as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely = filled with oil.

Steve Boese

> On May 7, 2019, at = 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:
>
> = =E2=97=86 This message = was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when clicking = links or opening attachments from external sources.
>
> =
> Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary? =
> I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting = it to improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line = was added.
> Jeff
>
> Jeff,
> At this point = I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the modified drain = and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with respect to power = absorption or heat generation.
>
> Connecting the vent = line to the foot of the rotor housing was ineffective even though this = location was above the oil level. Connecting the vent line to the area = of the oil filler opening at the top of the center iron allowed the = gearbox to drain as intended.
>
> The most troublesome = part of the modification was enlarging the oil return to 1/2" NPT = in the rotor housing foot.
>
> Steve Boese
> =
>
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and = UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml

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