X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JejCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=MXRAKZlQQgzJ5ErwEh8GJw==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=E5NmQfObTbMA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=JHgEbvZpAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=o3EL5NL_AXZE11qlTg4A:9 a=YebLKml37UwYHQcG:21 a=Lf9IlZUlYJdt47Hw:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=pomoK1jUDHYLahR5P9sA:9 a=Ht_ABrRR0fwbkC3X:21 a=m_ZcDo8x_GgGRyYU:21 a=G9dq8sOeseZDYG-9:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=xnzgGCb9g37PWrLTCAHf:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pl1-f173.google.com ([209.85.214.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.12) with ESMTPS id 12543387 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 08 May 2019 19:11:05 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.173; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pl1-f173.google.com with SMTP id d21so137291plr.3 for ; Wed, 08 May 2019 16:11:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=vPHBN+dXefLjuxwKve1QOLQqyrLObDFzffwfvf75Z3s=; b=emDFjXdAt3hzYDb7nunWLPoKXTnZInpQmXEX3qrsa2hZ8gHPnurmAAsJlJJb2vV62j fKyoreV47dYXE/m/ZENr20w8PN2xRI8wMstRl9jithSj2CqgWAZZg5o930J4H1SSo0B4 5N5bIuM/HyGCfk3+SMqf8E8FsBl3nBMOcPUfEP4nd0s9bv45RgyLMRWV/L9njPIA5Xh7 hcoeFpHJzGA624eAxEwwi3DfZIsjKYKLN8DQX4Vu7FZMxB0aN3x9ekRVnZkki9zZJoms DnRdx2htzX6kU5zzcOlQh6+4tyC8rkIX00bD4A64WrPx1SRNuLMPlsa8zJtECkrP0zU4 xjBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=vPHBN+dXefLjuxwKve1QOLQqyrLObDFzffwfvf75Z3s=; b=nclVBtyKok3tQvSYW8OlNPFcKl1UsiG+pbPu4Z6rd4JrqAnwDDB2Ce7fTEu68/EOW7 NEV4BitGQAATS/zDgmM9fbhWbu31LWUnPKdN/aNrc7gCurTfidJzrXv7YwUl3WO6AOXu s7CpD7NDywOFU7b0ANcVLN6Wggpr0otMg5RF0mro3+bk0NTlDfMFpZJVLvUvOj7JnIan nGU/TG74XoeqSE0nIuwDJb+yCthKLNgvLrGttrZD8qAGhulzJZxPEI5QcBcubfcoOCPM oyDauajcGJXhHdPCnNmLbFSfdunSpISPaB+vfHDI3erzb9EgGX3gEd8IT3IIeYF0JN/u vxhg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAULCF61j/AgG8j1OGqAWQzuFxPmWOIkvKgX2qoQwLBNNYayzPNN Un4vfFRobR3t3hSicAU+fDdpyRj0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzWRV6IszHJVIkdpADbdLXx+P3mqpMDuGdTqKAMGc0uslmKqaYeGknyfGQiLdIeBB9F+INMgg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:5e1:: with SMTP id f88mr545129plf.226.1557357047603; Wed, 08 May 2019 16:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.0.103] ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r64sm456401pfa.25.2019.05.08.16.10.45 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 May 2019 16:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Venting the Reduction Drive To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <79473a28-988d-94ff-99e3-62dbb5ed3d84@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 09:10:43 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4053353B030934471515E3DE" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4053353B030934471515E3DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave and all,                          My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does not need the pressure feed.   Matt is too polite to tell the whole story.  The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bearings do   --- it melted. Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the redrive which found the cooked bronze bush.  Fortunately no other damage.  This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication. Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell. Rubber cushion drive ---   Matt has really copped the "pineapple" on this.  Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication between the office and the workman doing the job. In ignorance and lack of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to the one I am running currently.  These cushion drives will be subject to recall and the proper rubber fitted.  Very embarrassing and infuriating for me. So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil should work well and will simplify things. Neil. On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote: > Well said, Charlie.  Here is Neil's page with diagrams: > http://naa73x.wixsite.com/rotarpower/propeller-psru > > BTW,  very nicely done Neil. > > Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys. > > Dave Leonard > > On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Matt, > > I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may > not be using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, > under that oil feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's > telling you that if there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's > designed for pressure feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain > death, in short order. If Neil is using a ball or roller bearing > back there, that's a different game entirely, and I'd want his > input on whether it needs pressurized flow, both for lube and for > cooling. > > On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com > wrote: >> Neil's. 3.17 ratio. >> I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well. >> >> - Matt Boiteau >> >> On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com >> > > wrote: >> >> Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?  If so, it will >> absolutely fail in short order with no pressure feed to the >> main bearing. >> >> Dave Leonard. >> >> On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau >> mattboiteau@gmail.com >> > > wrote: >> >> So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, >> temps only got to 135°F. >> >> Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June. >> >> - Matt Boiteau >> >> On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com >> > > wrote: >> >> Matt, >>   So you are trying using self contained lube with no >> pressure feed from the engine and no >> drain...…...Watch your temps......…….Let us know what >> happens...…... >> >> Kelly Troyer >> >> On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau >> mattboiteau@gmail.com >> > > wrote: >> >> I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with >> sealing it up. Only adding a breather vent on the >> rear housing. So far I've only done ground >> testing, but all seems well enough to fly with it >> soon enough. The Tygon house in the picture was >> only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I >> ran gear oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and >> came out the breather vent, so went back down to >> my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, >> but I think I can go a little less, haven't >> tested the idle level yet. >> >> I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital >> level sensor (half way) installed in the rear >> housing as well. >> >> - Matt Boiteau >>> >>> On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese >>> SBoese@uwyo.edu >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> If the original return line was not enlarged, >>> the "vent" line simply acted as an additional >>> return line and my gearboxes operated completely >>> filled with oil. >>> >>> Steve Boese >>> >>> > On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley >>> jwhaley@datacast.com >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > ◆ This message was sent from a non-UWYO >>> address. Please exercise caution when clicking >>> links or opening attachments from external sources. >>> > >>> > >>> > Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return >>> necessary? >>> > I thought you first tried enlarging the return >>> line expecting it to improve draining, only to >>> find no improvement until the vent line was added. >>> > Jeff >>> > >>> > Jeff, >>> > At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time >>> on the gearbox with the modified drain and vent. >>> I have not observed a significant effect with >>> respect to power absorption or heat generation. >>> > >>> > Connecting the vent line to the foot of the >>> rotor housing was ineffective even though this >>> location was above the oil level. Connecting the >>> vent line to the area of the oil filler opening >>> at the top of the center iron allowed the >>> gearbox to drain as intended. >>> > >>> > The most troublesome part of the modification >>> was enlarging the oil return to 1/2" NPT in the >>> rotor housing foot. >>> > >>> > Steve Boese >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#m_9088097933279413623_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > --------------4053353B030934471515E3DE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dave and all,

                         My prop shaft is on timken taper bearings, so does not need the pressure feed.   Matt is too polite to tell the whole story.  The initial run did not get enough oil to the bronze bush between the input shaft and the prop shaft --- so it did what all oil starved bearings do   --- it melted.   Luckily Matt had his rubber cushion drive self destruct as well-- I say luckily as that caused the dismantle of the redrive which found the cooked bronze bush.  Fortunately no other damage.  This prompted us to make the unit self contained as for lubrication.  Heat may be a problem, but I doubt it and time will soon tell.

Rubber cushion drive ---   Matt has really copped the "pineapple" on this.  Finally turns out that the rubber firm used the wrong rubber --- Still chasing that problem down but appears lack of communication between the office and the workman doing the job.  In ignorance and lack of knowledge he put the wrong rubber in--- totally different rubber to the one I am running currently.  These cushion drives will be subject to recall and the proper rubber fitted.  Very embarrassing and infuriating for me. 

So as info becomes available I will post, but the self contained oil should work well and will simplify things.

Neil.

On 5/9/2019 8:42 AM, David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com wrote:
Well said, Charlie.  Here is Neil's page with diagrams:

BTW,  very nicely done Neil.

Best I can tell it is a pressure fed bearing just like Tracys.

Dave Leonard

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Matt,

I've not followed Neil's version of the drive carefully; he may not be using a sleeve bearing. But Tracy's drive *does* use one, under that oil feed hole in the 'fat' part of the housing. Dave's telling you that if there's a sleeve type bearing in there that's designed for pressure feeding, lack of oil pressure is certain death, in short order. If Neil is using a ball or roller bearing back there, that's a different game entirely, and I'd want his input on whether it needs pressurized flow, both for lube and for cooling.

On 5/8/2019 3:44 PM, Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com wrote:
Neil's. 3.17 ratio.
I've found the back gears push the oil to the front pretty well.

- Matt Boiteau

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:13 David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Matt, is this one of Tracy Crooks drives?  If so, it will absolutely fail in short order with no pressure feed to the main bearing.

Dave Leonard.

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 7:03 AM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
So far on the ground, static 2200 prop rpm for 30seconds, temps only got to 135°F.

Haven't flown yet. Will advise in June.

- Matt Boiteau

On Wed, May 8, 2019, 00:09 Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Matt,
  So you are trying using self contained lube with no pressure feed from the engine and no drain...…...Watch your temps......…….Let us know what happens...…...

Kelly Troyer 

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 10:15 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I've been experimenting on Neil's PSRU with sealing it up. Only adding a breather vent on the rear housing. So far I've only done ground testing, but all seems well enough to fly with it soon enough. The Tygon house in the picture was only to see the oil flow, it's capped off now. I ran gear oil 70w-140 and it was way to thick and came out the breather vent, so went back down to my normal engine oil 20w-50. Filled half full, but I think I can go a little less, haven't tested the idle level yet.

I have a temp sensor (1/3 down), and a digital level sensor (half way) installed in the rear housing as well.

- Matt Boiteau

On 2019-05-07 12:32:26 PM, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

If the original return line was not enlarged, the "vent" line simply acted as an additional return line and my gearboxes operated completely filled with oil.

Steve Boese

> On May 7, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:
>
> ◆ This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.
>
>
> Hi Steve, is the enlarging of the oil return necessary?
> I thought you first tried enlarging the return line expecting it to improve draining, only to find no improvement until the vent line was added.
> Jeff
>
> Jeff,
> At this point I have only 3 hr of flight time on the gearbox with the modified drain and vent. I have not observed a significant effect with respect to power absorption or heat generation.
>
> Connecting the vent line to the foot of the rotor housing was ineffective even though this location was above the oil level. Connecting the vent line to the area of the oil filler opening at the top of the center iron allowed the gearbox to drain as intended.
>
> The most troublesome part of the modification was enlarging the oil return to 1/2" NPT in the rotor housing foot.
>
> Steve Boese
>
>
> --
> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

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