X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=L4JfeKb8 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=vbBv/SIGvh9zlr3i/bzzAA==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=smKx5t2vBNcA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=XBh2sy_UAAAA:20 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=8qGtkLIY_SqebQuTplkA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=MUY4e4lf0umfBgYP:21 a=h_EPKCgPz7ykpn4N:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=tgtg6NE7SnahpnhdpmAA:9 a=u1rLqrP4lfY4DEGG:21 a=YryObF801E1YL-_d:21 a=m5j0WSCIGlS4ssgp:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f41.google.com ([209.85.208.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.8) with ESMTPS id 11740532 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Oct 2018 05:05:47 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.41; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f41.google.com with SMTP id y19-v6so16913818edd.2 for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2018 02:05:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=IbxOGrVK0aY0I1ENiMeVpaQmIq2C724oKvTp8ClM0rs=; b=IaWEv9RA/rzcAsnWK8eMYQd913sxl6bMJ6GCHS5x9Q1YAKmXh3V/McqywqwKzhISIR Hcv0HzyI6HNXZUf9HzV9QhMKT6awm1DqXlN6QHgxEbKCWO7k0zVrByTI4TmGOoY8Upef bySvLkBg6PBtOdcgdW6Gf2E2Ua/zUxVkmXCSeEC9rgyKEC5tBhuDRLJt7qncAeRjLP22 xQ3pCIaf73gN4IQlVLMQkvJJYjFB3HiRrTpIN02reD/1jksB92ggISgrsMT66WLojHCQ d+FPpFeVVEe4z3sfvnEinhNl5qqig+bVcoY+kw2ZlFbRLKUHurEkQyG8bSVjTUcub695 y8/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=IbxOGrVK0aY0I1ENiMeVpaQmIq2C724oKvTp8ClM0rs=; b=YzVWpauQifT86J14y8nLGEBv4Sk/gydcwZNXrqtrznDo4i5Fco+lj5DQ7qgpZmPrRH Sdl4O7wSlzwMV2hE4AyPM9nG8plHaHZNs6CJE42nlCOYnLUA2OoBoOfadEpyt72QBVlb JDT5vMknXYXzxeizlnYJF3jDWCNC6oQ+nnTryrKiyqRy4JV93z8BQcjEZgM8rRThbtXF oUxvPJYFAGSFrHO/P4vhN9mhWr/EVGinMn3K46f36gNiS2MfIOWRF1lZD5Y/mMPn9Y4P okYwa5MYN3t9/NeYrj+VD1IcrloyVe/aj4UazlcCn7IYdpBeAtmEd34earWQbA6SSN+s gYlw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoj192Ry+YemAA9JcY4kgoiBUGFNM13BEmH42t4TDaG5B54DZGFV Q+ngD7ms6O96aBlwi24/oLvX0J67VMWHvdvAWTG4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61kMk8t3YFJt9Derl9lpKCkZBoUvUx67flX+0W5vXz6YWK7CZ3IOiNei6XroNYtKPKtUe+2msFBEHgpslF/sYQ= X-Received: by 2002:a50:af22:: with SMTP id g31-v6mr27258515edd.106.1538989529907; Mon, 08 Oct 2018 02:05:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 02:05:17 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 2 pass or not 2 pass... oil cooler? To: FlyRotary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003e46850577b3ec83" --0000000000003e46850577b3ec83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for the quick responses, unfortunately I had a busy week and had to put flying stuff on hold until now so I still haven't moved on this. Tracy; I hear you and the thing is that a 2-pass would make for a much better hose routing. It would shorten it and get rid of a 180 degree AN fitting. That would save a little weight and resistance and just make for a cleaner install. After cutting open my Mazda cooler I feel certain that this one will have more than enough flow capacity even as a 2-pass. I just ordered 2 Arduino barometric pressure & temperature sensors as it should be easy enough to add them to the data-logger and then I can get a better idea of pressures across my coolers. Ernest; I just ordered a wireless inspection camera to try to get a good look at air flows to test whether you and Tracy are in agreement ... or not :-) Lynn; So one of my biggest concerns with welding in a plate to convert to a 2-pass is the inability to weld all 4 sides of the plate with the plate edge inside the cooler against the tube plate being inaccessible. I can make it fit tight but it would still be susceptible to an insignificant amount of oil leaking by and bypassing the tubes, if I do it right. If. Nobody, yourself included, mentioned this as a concern, so I'm going to proceed with this. Steve; That is some really good data. While there are certainly some differences in our installs it is still great to compare to. I see you have the RD1C so are climbing at 6800rpm. I have the RD1B and so only run at about 5600 during climb but with about 4psi of boost, climbing at ~95kts IAS at ~950fpm with 2 of us onboard, full fuel. (well full main tanks, not aux.) Most of my flying has been in the circuit as I'm working on that darn tailwheel thing, so my temps are really in a cycle up around a 110C for coolant and 110 for oil, then both dropping a little on the downwind and dropping right off on final, repeat. I have used my data-logger in it's rudimentary proto-type form to collect raw data while flying, and it works well, so now I need to apply some correction math to the data input to give me more meaning full data, so I can report hard numbers. Steve, I assume from the pic that you have the cooler perpendicular to the airflow, which would account for much better performance. I had to tilt mine at a 30 degree angle in order to fit it under the oil pan. Did you have to modify your cowl to fit it in there? Id like to see a pic of your cowl with inlet. Todd Bartrim..... add to cart.... too easy..... this is killing me.... On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 5:56 PM Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Todd, > > > This morning I made a short flight designed to challenge my cooling > systems as opposed to the way I normally operate. The field elevation here > is 7280 ft. The conditions and results are listed in case they may be of > interest: > > > Climb from density altitude 9400' to 11600' > > OAT decreased from 21 to 14 deg C > > MAP decreased from 22.1 to 20.4 inches Hg > > Fuel flow decreased from 13.2 to 12.4 gal/hr > > RPM was 6800 > > IAS was 70 Kt > > TAS was 80 Kt > > Coolant was thermostatically controlled and 89 deg C > > The air pressure difference across the oil cooler core was 2.5 inches H2O > > Heat rejected by the coolant and oil cooling systems was 68% by coolant > and 32% by oil. > > > The following temperatures were stabilized at the end of the climb: > > Oil cooler oil inlet temperature was 114 deg C > > Oil cooler outlet temperature was 85 deg C > > Oil inlet side air exiting the core was 78 deg C > > Oil outlet side air exiting the core was 72 deg C > > > The oil cooler was a single pass DB30618. > > > I don't think I have observed an indication that the oil side of the oil > cooler is limiting when there is sufficient air flow through the core. As > a result, it may be unlikely that converting the cooler to double pass > would improve its performance very much. If you changed from a stock > Mazda cooler to the DB30618, you now have about twice the oil flow rate > through the cooler. If the temperature of the oil coming out of the cooler > is about the same as you had from the Mazda cooler, the temperature > difference of the oil across the cooler is now about half of what it was > originally. In other words, about the same amount of heat is being removed > by the oil but the temperature of the oil in the sump is significantly > less. Do you measure the oil cooler inlet and outlet oil temperatures? > > > I do not have an oil cooler outlet air duct. Under almost all cruise > conditions, I restrict the air flow through the cooler by partially or > fully closing a shutter on the air outlet side of the cooler in order to > get oil temperatures out of the cooler above 71 degrees C. The shutter > does not close off all the core area due to interference with the engine > mount. > > > I cannot produce as much power as you can due to the altitude here and my > normally aspirated engine. However as altitude decreases the cooling > capacity of the air increases by the same amount as the increase in power. > So I have not observed a change in operating temperatures as a result of > changing altitude. > > > For what it is worth. > > > Steve Boese > > RV6A, 1986 13B NA, EC2, RD1C, MT electric CS prop > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf > of Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com > *Sent:* Sunday, September 30, 2018 1:55:57 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] 2 pass or not 2 pass... oil cooler? > > Hey Rotorheads; > This summer I bought the Fluidyne DB30618 but it is only a single pass. > I recently inquired about them with Summit Racing and they say they will > provide a 2-pass as a custom order. The stock oil cooler is a 2-pass but > much more restrictive. The single pass added a longer hose with a 180 swept > fitting to make it work. > I'm seeing higher temps than I'd like to despite my improved duct work. > Actually inlet duct was improved, but outlet duct is new as I didn't have > one before and I do wonder if the outlet duct is restrictive but I'm > limited with space and old nose gear mount being in the way (as much as I'd > like to remove the nose wheel mount it is integral to the engine mount, so > I'm stuck with it), so I wonder if it would be better to remove the exit > duct completely and just leave the oil cooler exit air un-ducted? > But to the main question for tonight, I'm thinking about converting my > cooler to a 2-pass. I have been experiencing higher oil temps than expected > at around 110C and considering the OAT has dropped considerably, I would > like to reduce these somewhat. I suspect that the flow is not going through > the entire cooler evenly with a majority of flow channeling through only a > few of the tubes as it is not really any different than the temps it used > to see with the Mazda cooler. The larger size and more efficient design > should produce better cooling if oil was flowing evenly through all tubes > and spending a longer time in the cooler. > So I'm thinking it should be simple enough to convert to a 2-pass cooler > which should ensure a better distribution of flow through all the tubes. > But is it really so simple?? See pic at > https://photos.app.goo.gl/TrU99jXjftz4X8h37 > It would seem a simple matter to zip-cut a slot where the red line is, > slide in a baffle plate and weld it up, re-sealing the end tank, drill a > hole and weld in the new AN10 fitting and at the other end, zip off the old > AN12 fitting and weld it up. This would also simplify plumbing, as the oil > in line would be shorter and go straight in with no 180 bend. > But the thing is I can only weld on 3 sides of the baffle plate that I > would install. I can ensure that it is tightly seated against the tube end > plate between the tube but it wouldn't be a sealed junction. Do it right > and an insignificant amount of oil may bypass there and not go through the > tubes. Do it wrong and it could be a significant amount with a drastic > reduction in cooling. > Obviously I've already removed the cooler and brought it home with the > intent to do this mod, but now I'm second guessing myself. I've considered > that if Summit Racing is modifying these as a custom order then they likely > are doing just what I plan to do. Otherwise it would have to be done during > manufacture by Fluidyne. > It seems simple, but I lost sleep last night considering all the > various issues. Still didn't do it today, so I figured I'd pose the > question to the group and go hunting with my kid tomorrow while I wait for > the opinions to arrive. > > On another topic, during a take-off roll the other day, the diaphragm > in my old stock wastegate actuator blew. I didn't catch it with the > throttle until I hit 16.5 psi of boost. No damage but I gotta say that's a > fun way to get off the ground in a hurry! I usually limit myself to 6 psi > of boost as that was the spring pressure. I do have an electronic > controller (TurboSmart) which allows me to have higher pressures above the > spring pressure, but that is intended for high altitude and mountain > flying. > I've ordered a new adjustable piston type of actuator that comes with a > selection of 6 springs. I intend to use the 3 psi spring as I usually use > the boost very conservatively and the TurboSmart controller can give me > more if I need it for short mountain strips. > Anyways, I look forward to your opinions on the oil cooler. > > Todd Bartrim ....... 20.6 hours on new RV9 version 2.0..... I had to > cash in beer cans for gas money.... > C-FSTB > RV9 13Bturbo > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --0000000000003e46850577b3ec83 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Thanks for the quick responses, unfortunately I had= a busy week and had to put flying stuff on hold until now so I still haven= 't moved on this.
Tracy; I hear you and the thing is that a 2-pass = would make for a much better hose routing. It would shorten it and get rid = of a 180 degree AN fitting. That would save a little weight and resistance = and just make for a cleaner install. After cutting open my Mazda cooler I f= eel certain that this one will have more than enough flow capacity even as = a 2-pass. I just ordered 2 Arduino barometric pressure & temperature se= nsors as it should be easy enough to add them to the data-logger and then I= can get a better idea of pressures across my coolers.
=C2=A0 Ern= est; I just ordered a wireless inspection camera to try to get a good look = at air flows to test whether you and Tracy are in agreement ... or not :-)<= /div>
Lynn; So one of my biggest concerns with welding in a plate to co= nvert to a 2-pass is the inability to weld all 4 sides of the plate with th= e plate edge inside the cooler against the tube plate being inaccessible. I= can make it fit tight but it would still be susceptible to an insignifican= t amount of oil leaking by and bypassing the tubes, if I do it right. If. N= obody, yourself included, mentioned this as a concern, so I'm going to = proceed with this.
=C2=A0 Steve; That is some really good data. W= hile there are certainly some differences in our installs it is still great= to compare to. I see you have the RD1C so are climbing at 6800rpm. I have = the RD1B and so only run at about 5600 during climb but with about 4psi of = boost, climbing at ~95kts IAS at ~950fpm with 2 of us onboard, full fuel. (= well full main tanks, not aux.)=C2=A0
=C2=A0 Most of my flying ha= s been in the circuit as I'm working on that darn tailwheel thing, so m= y temps are really in a cycle up around a 110C for coolant and 110 for oil,= then both dropping a little on the downwind and dropping right off on fina= l, repeat. I have used my data-logger in it's rudimentary proto-type fo= rm to collect raw data while flying, and it works well, so now I need to ap= ply some correction math to the data input to give me more meaning full dat= a, so I can report hard numbers.
=C2=A0Steve, I assume from the p= ic that you have the cooler perpendicular to the airflow, which would accou= nt for much better performance. I had to tilt mine at a 30 degree angle in = order to fit it under the oil pan. Did you have to modify your cowl to fit = it in there? Id like to see a pic of your cowl with inlet.

Todd Bartrim.....=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= add to cart....=C2=A0 =C2=A0too easy.....=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this is killing me.= ...


On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 5:56 PM Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Todd,


This morning I made a short fligh= t designed to challenge my cooling systems as opposed to the way I normally= operate.=C2=A0 The field elevation here is 7280 ft.=C2=A0 The conditions a= nd results are listed in case they may be of interest:


Climb from density altitude 9400&= #39; to 11600'

OAT decreased from 21 to 14 deg C=

MAP decreased from 22.1 to 20.4 i= nches Hg

Fuel flow decreased from 13.2 to = 12.4 gal/hr

RPM was 6800

IAS was 70 Kt

TAS was 80 Kt

Coolant was thermostatically cont= rolled and 89 deg C

The air pressure difference acros= s the oil cooler core was 2.5 inches H2O

Heat rejected by the coolant and = oil cooling systems was 68% by coolant and 32% by oil.


The following temperatures were s= tabilized at the end of the climb:

Oil cooler oil inlet temperature = was 114 deg C

Oil cooler outlet temperature was= 85 deg C

Oil inlet side air exiting the co= re was 78 deg C

Oil outlet side air exiting the c= ore was 72 deg C


The oil cooler was a single pass = DB30618.


I don't think I have observed= an indication that the oil side of the oil cooler is limiting when there i= s sufficient air flow through the core.=C2=A0 As a result, it may be unlike= ly that converting the cooler to double pass would improve its performance very much. =C2=A0 If you changed from a stoc= k Mazda cooler to the DB30618, you now have about twice the oil flow rate t= hrough the cooler.=C2=A0 If the temperature of the oil coming out of the co= oler is about the same as you had from the Mazda cooler, the temperature difference of the oil across the cooler is n= ow about half of what it was originally.=C2=A0 In other words, about the sa= me amount of heat is being removed by the oil but the temperature of the oi= l in the sump is significantly less.=C2=A0 Do you measure the oil cooler inlet and outlet oil temperatures?


I do not have an oil cooler outle= t air duct.=C2=A0 Under almost all cruise conditions, I restrict the air fl= ow through the cooler by partially or fully closing a shutter on the air ou= tlet side of the cooler in order to get oil temperatures out of the cooler above 71 degrees C.=C2=A0 The shutter d= oes not close off all the core area due to interference with the engine mou= nt.


I cannot produce as much power as= you can due to the altitude here and my normally aspirated engine.=C2=A0 H= owever as altitude decreases the cooling capacity of the air increases by t= he same amount as the increase in power.=C2=A0 So I have not observed a change in operating temperatures as a result of c= hanging altitude.


For what it is worth.


Steve Boese

RV6A, 1986 13B NA, EC2, RD1C, MT = electric CS prop



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Todd = Bartrim bartrim@gmai= l.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2018 1:55:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] 2 pass or not 2 pass... oil cooler?
=C2=A0
Hey Rotorheads;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This summer I bought the Fluidyne DB30618 but it is only = a single pass. I recently inquired about them with Summit Racing and they s= ay they will provide a 2-pass as a custom order. The stock oil cooler is a = 2-pass but much more restrictive. The single pass added a longer hose with a 180 swept fitting to make it work.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm seeing higher temps than I'd like to despite = my improved duct work. Actually inlet duct was improved, but outlet duct is= new as I didn't have one before and I do wonder if the outlet duct is = restrictive but I'm limited with space and old nose gear mount being in the way (as much as I'd like to remove the nose wheel m= ount it is integral to the engine mount, so I'm stuck with it), so I wo= nder if it would be better to remove the exit duct completely and just leav= e the oil cooler exit air un-ducted?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0But to the main question for tonight, I'm thinking ab= out converting my cooler to a 2-pass. I have been experiencing higher oil t= emps than expected at around 110C and considering the OAT has dropped consi= derably, I would like to reduce these somewhat. I suspect that the flow is not going through the entire cooler evenly with= a majority of flow channeling through only a few of the tubes as it is not= really any different than the temps it used to see with the Mazda cooler. = The larger size and more efficient design should produce better cooling if oil was flowing evenly through all= tubes and spending a longer time in the cooler.
=C2=A0 So I'm thinking it should be simple enough to convert to a = 2-pass cooler which should ensure a better distribution of flow through all= the tubes. But is it really so simple?? See pic at
It would seem a simple matter to zip-cut a slot where the red line is,= slide in a baffle plate and weld it up, re-sealing the end tank, drill a h= ole and weld in the new AN10 fitting and at the other end, zip off the old = AN12 fitting and weld it up. This would also simplify plumbing, as the oil in line would be shorter and go s= traight in with no 180 bend.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0But the thing is I can only weld on 3 sides of the baffle= plate that I would install. I can ensure that it is tightly seated against= the tube end plate between the tube but it wouldn't be a sealed juncti= on. Do it right and an insignificant amount of oil may bypass there and not go through the tubes. Do it wrong and it coul= d be a significant amount with a drastic reduction in cooling.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Obviously I've already removed the cooler and brought= it home with the intent to do this mod, but now I'm second guessing my= self. I've considered that if Summit Racing is modifying these as a cus= tom order then they likely are doing just what I plan to do. Otherwise it would have to be done during manufacture by Fluidyne.<= /div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0It seems simple, but I lost sleep last night considering = all the various issues. Still didn't do it today, so I figured I'd = pose the question to the group and go hunting with my kid tomorrow while I = wait for the opinions to arrive.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0On another topic, during a take-off roll the other day, t= he diaphragm in my old stock wastegate actuator blew. I didn't catch it= with the throttle until I hit 16.5 psi of boost. No damage but I gotta say= that's a fun way to get off the ground in a hurry! I usually limit myself to 6 psi of boost as that was the spring pressure. = I do have an electronic controller (TurboSmart) which allows me to have hig= her pressures above the spring pressure, but that is intended for high alti= tude and mountain flying.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 I've ordered a new adjustable piston type of actuator that = comes with a selection of 6 springs. I intend to use the 3 psi spring as I = usually use the boost very conservatively and the TurboSmart controller can= give me more if I need it for short mountain strips.
Anyways, I look forward to your opinions on the oil cooler.

Todd Bartrim=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.......=C2=A0 20.6 hours o= n new RV9 version 2.0.....=C2=A0 I had to cash in beer cans for gas money..= ..
C-FSTB
RV9 13Bturbo
--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail= .lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
--0000000000003e46850577b3ec83--