X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=L4JfeKb8 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=qOVnjP1gQxeNEZ6fVsGICw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JBFolyDoGHsA:10 a=-ZWx6XDNE4MA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=XBh2sy_UAAAA:20 a=0Owi1Fy9Xrb8XHFPMLsA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=rxq8TZ75KuWP51La:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Ernest Christley echristley@att.net" Received: from sonic301-25.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([98.137.64.151] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.8) with ESMTP id 11710891 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 30 Sep 2018 19:01:35 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.137.64.151; envelope-from=echristley@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1538348461; bh=sf8KsuwJbnP4v6XdbS0kIhA8UbAFf/DGlJJig1XC8IA=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=ftfCXHQvACfEdrrSJBg95ztSu6OaUzOjydzUCEollYagWnn+fpQdS4MDXcTn9hTdS5ywSndUOXBRSXseh1Wxq2Ip8KYgx3kAW6Y7wsGr+n30PD9hYSvj1khwKHODyCWkY+9+59X99PRZpjwS8dPIb/00q0x/+M2Tx6vdkU+HnmI= X-YMail-OSG: mtylzsQVM1n9VIRT3fnI_ZdgrffaqNI5jOVKnX12cigTNThCeFWCz_glK5C0041 dKmcTpJFOEVqlBq8Jw7Te5KPuu2OJwjsn4_odho4D3nkCEriM__wjkAD_872BcX1ZL3b404xGLKQ RoXzTxzRVOGz8qjbI7lBgfqwjaNuEn2imL4phakfsd90W6lixyOaTxUeCUqkbGyog4PZxRnc2WGU HIq9fz4i8PsOnAuxHXvX7BjkN6wkQEXKzTRMx7pbJ.T_xdmy26Idm9tVZG0Jb3g8rZnMRayNeQ8z cv238FU9XKgmwKM75cgsvpaK35waxt0clA1d5TFuRSq6IkxA6QV70DlFUJpqhWqe.VgysiEFvQY9 AcBms65jC0TL.B7ankZs7r4ozfE08BTw9cuK9_n8V_AK0v6IoeFcvZoGUhpdnPnh6NwhPl2Dfwv5 NMV1gk6w3m.9pHaam.jerrYceGWGeGMR9Iuj1hpUDNaHvHLs7w8OmfDSruh2GBwxpanYlLZESzST 3Q4XMRoHFrQzlFSf.GwI5zCC4NTeFXVBTglLGBGSUF0MprHsW9M__kFRx.RX5jaSkRqPn_KSsDrD lJbbPrk9bTwoooMd61bYVC.qd6wIwLh0dqSpDDfPvPcduCVNKiKCph0RhTZlH7Hry9igZwy37mhv h5apDklobC6ScNC2kI4LPJjZyaXiDLU7dmYADNQYUiCp7jpvCj.F8dQ2coRv6d0tJIrwtNs3jV.r j7lu8B3FlKi0rpyzmddET9Dy9XeqkzhNk0fEZkMMFhd1ZkKCwWD_B7gw5.AjniJBhFQgcy91psfE JAW2qHYBlTMjEl5Ehk3E5Ly7Ket7C.c1TLOmGgdjNTYitfcadzF4CADE.6fkHR5.L1Plo5kibkoL TrMteY4Ie7oWM3M79ehGta1DjU3DJruUWKd4wjdbTFLRX7zFry3W8xEVnSk6EzMGyCyNXfNSnLhH rtcFLWBw.Rw7XniRXCaozc0EmDao- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 30 Sep 2018 23:01:01 +0000 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 23:00:55 +0000 (UTC) Reply-To: Ernest Christley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <1719580905.1735866.1538348455968@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 2 pass or not 2 pass... oil cooler? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1735865_1299442648.1538348455966" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12512 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 Content-Length: 15740 ------=_Part_1735865_1299442648.1538348455966 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd like to both agree and disagree....kinda...with Tracy. :-) I've related it before, and I will again.=C2=A0 I had problems with water t= emps that were caused by the exit air impacting the firewall and swirling a= round inside the cowling instead of exiting at the bottom.=C2=A0 A "duct" c= omprised of a single 6"x12" strip of sheet metal on one side of the cowl ex= it solved the problem.=C2=A0 I guess it was more a baffle than a duct, but = the issue is that the exit air may not be flowing out smoothly. If you're cooling well enough to fly now, try tying bits of yarn to various= places under the cowl where they want interfere with engine operation, sti= ck a camera under there, and go fly a minute.=C2=A0 I discovered my issue w= hen the air blowing past the exhaust melted a plastic intake manifold tube,= but now I have one of those inspection cameras that attaches to my phone. =20 On Sunday, September 30, 2018 2:07 PM, "Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com"= wrote: =20 No elaborate Studies on this, just my observations over the years, so take= this with a grain of salt.I think the advantages of a double pass cooler a= re highly over rated. =C2=A0I=E2=80=99d use which ever worked out best for = hose routing. =C2=A0I also think the stock Mazda cooler is underrated. =C2= =A0It works much better than its appearance would suggest. Inlets and Ducts are harder to get right than I ever suspected. =C2=A0Press= ure readings in front and after coolers are invaluable for determining when= they are working. =C2=A0 Outlet ducts from the cooler exit would be great but I=E2=80=99ve never fou= nd them to be practical. =C2=A0They required too much compromise with other= things. =C2=A0BUT, I reasoned that the velocity immediately out of the coo= lers is not that high and is turbulent, so I concentrated on the cowl outle= t where the velocity IS high. =C2=A0Aim to make it as much like a rocket en= gine nozzle as possible. =C2=A0I found that shaping the exit into a diffuse= r improved cooling a bit even though adding the pieces that shaped it reduc= ed the throat area of the 'nozzle'. =C2=A0 Avoid sharp turns, corners and e= dges. =C2=A0Cleaning up the exit duct alone got me almost 5 deg F. improvem= ent in cooling on the RV-8. =C2=A0 Tracy Crook On Sep 30, 2018, at 01:55, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote: Hey Rotorheads;=C2=A0 =C2=A0This summer I bought the Fluidyne DB30618 but i= t is only a single pass. I recently inquired about them with Summit Racing = and they say they will provide a 2-pass as a custom order. The stock oil co= oler is a 2-pass but much more restrictive. The single pass added a longer = hose with a 180 swept fitting to make it work.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm seeing highe= r temps than I'd like to despite my improved duct work. Actually inlet duct= was improved, but outlet duct is new as I didn't have one before and I do = wonder if the outlet duct is restrictive but I'm limited with space and old= nose gear mount being in the way (as much as I'd like to remove the nose w= heel mount it is integral to the engine mount, so I'm stuck with it), so I = wonder if it would be better to remove the exit duct completely and just le= ave the oil cooler exit air un-ducted?=C2=A0 =C2=A0But to the main question= for tonight, I'm thinking about converting my cooler to a 2-pass. I have b= een experiencing higher oil temps than expected at around 110C and consider= ing the OAT has dropped considerably, I would like to reduce these somewhat= . I suspect that the flow is not going through the entire cooler evenly wit= h a majority of flow channeling through only a few of the tubes as it is no= t really any different than the temps it used to see with the Mazda cooler.= The larger size and more efficient design should produce better cooling if= oil was flowing evenly through all tubes and spending a longer time in the= cooler.=C2=A0 So I'm thinking it should be simple enough to convert to a 2= -pass cooler which should ensure a better distribution of flow through all = the tubes. But is it really so simple?? See pic athttps://photos.app.goo.gl= /TrU99jXjftz4X8h37 It would seem a simple matter to zip-cut a slot where the red line is, slid= e in a baffle plate and weld it up, re-sealing the end tank, drill a hole a= nd weld in the new AN10 fitting and at the other end, zip off the old AN12 = fitting and weld it up. This would also simplify plumbing, as the oil in li= ne would be shorter and go straight in with no 180 bend.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But th= e thing is I can only weld on 3 sides of the baffle plate that I would inst= all. I can ensure that it is tightly seated against the tube end plate betw= een the tube but it wouldn't be a sealed junction. Do it right and an insig= nificant amount of oil may bypass there and not go through the tubes. Do it= wrong and it could be a significant amount with a drastic reduction in coo= ling.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Obviously I've already removed the cooler and brought it = home with the intent to do this mod, but now I'm second guessing myself. I'= ve considered that if Summit Racing is modifying these as a custom order th= en they likely are doing just what I plan to do. Otherwise it would have to= be done during manufacture by Fluidyne.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It seems simple, but I= lost sleep last night considering all the various issues. Still didn't do = it today, so I figured I'd pose the question to the group and go hunting wi= th my kid tomorrow while I wait for the opinions to arrive. =C2=A0 =C2=A0On another topic, during a take-off roll the other day, the di= aphragm in my old stock wastegate actuator blew. I didn't catch it with the= throttle until I hit 16.5 psi of boost. No damage but I gotta say that's a= fun way to get off the ground in a hurry! I usually limit myself to 6 psi = of boost as that was the spring pressure. I do have an electronic controlle= r (TurboSmart) which allows me to have higher pressures above the spring pr= essure, but that is intended for high altitude and mountain flying.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 I've ordered a new adjustable piston type of actuator that comes wit= h a selection of 6 springs. I intend to use the 3 psi spring as I usually u= se the boost very conservatively and the TurboSmart controller can give me = more if I need it for short mountain strips.Anyways, I look forward to your= opinions on the oil cooler. Todd Bartrim=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.......=C2=A0 20.6 hours on new RV9 version= 2.0.....=C2=A0 I had to cash in beer cans for gas money....C-FSTBRV9 13Btu= rbo =20 ------=_Part_1735865_1299442648.1538348455966 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'd like to both agree and disagree..= ..kinda...with Tracy. :-)

=
I've related it before, and I w= ill again.  I had problems with water temps that were caused by the ex= it air impacting the firewall and swirling around inside the cowling instea= d of exiting at the bottom.  A "duct" comprised of a single 6"x12" str= ip of sheet metal on one side of the cowl exit solved the problem.  I = guess it was more a baffle than a duct, but the issue is that the exit air = may not be flowing out smoothly.

If you'r= e cooling well enough to fly now, try tying bits of yarn to various places = under the cowl where they want interfere with engine operation, stick a cam= era under there, and go fly a minute.  I discovered my issue when the = air blowing past the exhaust melted a plastic intake manifold tube, but now= I have one of those inspection cameras that attaches to my phone.


On Sunday, September 30, 2018 2:07 PM, "Tracy Crook rwstracy@gm= ail.com" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

<= br>
No elabor= ate Studies on this, just my observations over the years, so take this with= a grain of salt.
I think the advantages of a double pass cooler are hi= ghly over rated.  I=E2=80=99d use which ever worked out best for hose = routing.  I also think the stock Mazda cooler is underrated.  It = works much better than its appearance would suggest.

Inlets and Ducts are harder to get right than I ever suspected.  Pr= essure readings in front and after coolers are invaluable for determining w= hen they are working.  

Outlet ducts from the= cooler exit would be great but I=E2=80=99ve never found them to be practic= al.  They required too much compromise with other things.  BUT, I= reasoned that the velocity immediately out of the coolers is not that high= and is turbulent, so I concentrated on the cowl outlet where the velocity = IS high.  Aim to make it as much like a rocket engine nozzle as possib= le.  I found that shaping the exit into a diffuser improved cooling a = bit even though adding the pieces that shaped it reduced the throat area of= the 'nozzle'.   Avoid sharp turns, corners and edges.  Cleaning = up the exit duct alone got me almost 5 deg F. improvement in cooling on the= RV-8.  

Tracy Crook

On Se= p 30, 2018, at 01:55, Todd Bartrim bartri= m@gmail.com <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hey Rotorheads;
   This summer I bought the Fluidyne DB30618 but it is only a si= ngle pass. I recently inquired about them with Summit Racing and they say t= hey will provide a 2-pass as a custom order. The stock oil cooler is a 2-pa= ss but much more restrictive. The single pass added a longer hose with a 18= 0 swept fitting to make it work.
   I'm seeing higher t= emps than I'd like to despite my improved duct work. Actually inlet duct wa= s improved, but outlet duct is new as I didn't have one before and I do won= der if the outlet duct is restrictive but I'm limited with space and old no= se gear mount being in the way (as much as I'd like to remove the nose whee= l mount it is integral to the engine mount, so I'm stuck with it), so I won= der if it would be better to remove the exit duct completely and just leave= the oil cooler exit air un-ducted?
   But to the main = question for tonight, I'm thinking about converting my cooler to a 2-pass. = I have been experiencing higher oil temps than expected at around 110C and = considering the OAT has dropped considerably, I would like to reduce these = somewhat. I suspect that the flow is not going through the entire cooler ev= enly with a majority of flow channeling through only a few of the tubes as = it is not really any different than the temps it used to see with the Mazda= cooler. The larger size and more efficient design should produce better co= oling if oil was flowing evenly through all tubes and spending a longer tim= e in the cooler.
  So I'm thinking it should be simple enoug= h to convert to a 2-pass cooler which should ensure a better distribution o= f flow through all the tubes. But is it really so simple?? See pic at
=
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TrU99jXjftz4X8h37
It would seem a simple matter to zip-cut a slot where the red line = is, slide in a baffle plate and weld it up, re-sealing the end tank, drill = a hole and weld in the new AN10 fitting and at the other end, zip off the o= ld AN12 fitting and weld it up. This would also simplify plumbing, as the o= il in line would be shorter and go straight in with no 180 bend.
=    But the thing is I can only weld on 3 sides of the baffle plat= e that I would install. I can ensure that it is tightly seated against the = tube end plate between the tube but it wouldn't be a sealed junction. Do it= right and an insignificant amount of oil may bypass there and not go throu= gh the tubes. Do it wrong and it could be a significant amount with a drast= ic reduction in cooling.
   Obviously I've already remo= ved the cooler and brought it home with the intent to do this mod, but now = I'm second guessing myself. I've considered that if Summit Racing is modify= ing these as a custom order then they likely are doing just what I plan to = do. Otherwise it would have to be done during manufacture by Fluidyne.
   It seems simple, but I lost sleep last night considering= all the various issues. Still didn't do it today, so I figured I'd pose th= e question to the group and go hunting with my kid tomorrow while I wait fo= r the opinions to arrive.

   On another = topic, during a take-off roll the other day, the diaphragm in my old stock = wastegate actuator blew. I didn't catch it with the throttle until I hit 16= .5 psi of boost. No damage but I gotta say that's a fun way to get off the = ground in a hurry! I usually limit myself to 6 psi of boost as that was the= spring pressure. I do have an electronic controller (TurboSmart) which all= ows me to have higher pressures above the spring pressure, but that is inte= nded for high altitude and mountain flying. 
  I've ord= ered a new adjustable piston type of actuator that comes with a selection o= f 6 springs. I intend to use the 3 psi spring as I usually use the boost ve= ry conservatively and the TurboSmart controller can give me more if I need = it for short mountain strips.
Anyways, I look forward to your opi= nions on the oil cooler.

Todd Bartrim    &= nbsp;.......  20.6 hours on new RV9 version 2.0.....  I had to ca= sh in beer cans for gas money....
C-FSTB
RV9 13Bturbo


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