X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=HLI9YW46itP1cgRoml1iLQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=Bujtalh5AAAA:20 a=F24KDGdVAAAA:20 a=Hqza0dVbAAAA:20 a=NCKqFpi-AAAA:20 a=ZRZwmDVbAAAA:20 a=MGsEt3PBAAAA:20 a=TmyU-Mh6AAAA:20 a=PoZu3tpAAAAA:20 a=bHsnryEMAAAA:20 a=BADPJtUGAAAA:20 a=f-9bBLRcAAAA:20 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=QhLrsF9qAAAA:8 a=eRLigfuSAAAA:8 a=Gr42nsktzslg5v4yjY4A:9 a=Ny8sBuCEwTaFOfWv:21 a=Az_xB3pdRVR6uEYX:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=HPIAOejwdAwA:10 a=1rn6k7xgAAAA:20 a=pVePa0ewN-4bByujHroA:9 a=q_shonMdm5lZKhUr:21 a=SiGnwyvwjW9UE7VN:21 a=1Em5N7_wXwbQM2KD:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=i4tH8neNAzHi3qRh_LgF:22 a=BfhXYjFvZD4iae-mNffo:22 From: "Todd Bartrim" Received: from mail-wr0-f179.google.com ([209.85.128.179] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10034418 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:18:21 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.128.179; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr0-f179.google.com with SMTP id p8so53004714wrf.5 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 00:18:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pKRlMThFnV7iXulIgzAtKUe2peIee8xU/8kaZ2xuM38=; b=B9PtzJMuigjKFMnyQgLealQUqtHIyX7hsdxG2vU54t8o8JzOh626gdv9iaqduDZRL+ GeeRpyidmd0RlyTrfaPMdFb+xAoIBXuZ1hU1X9eC+zOpVi8yBr6XsVBgHB4S0Lic+WO+ lsYcVyO6WRtZ9b6/K43PqxxbOrCyNH1BGfYpamJj46ka04/+BfiZd4ES19v3Xl5ioqM3 tLqQ10c5EdGwI4tKIUBrHR/2fZP6S6yXBzPTlNNRYbUDNyTS97noTm6hiapecwsR3ivF MGz+TyETEXbjLtXMEi6g7Aq3gW2X68BDPfOk9kKLpPG7oJthkMQMU7c+rPMiX99+7sbt Plmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=pKRlMThFnV7iXulIgzAtKUe2peIee8xU/8kaZ2xuM38=; b=WP9KFxEDcWebxcx2RqntuotRjbSUo9saKCg57ubsRejWn6CKsJFIIomskFDRW1GeUC WcKKblcNjU9cYxmIiGJ1zRsCL7aPOR574LLVChRrPFySyo3BbvXVoOfUc+FE+gnXQT7f pKMZvnSCJ0QmueLUhQn14VCEPwQ6c/5i71bpyV6OHlxS+ubmoXOXAHB0MiCn+QEBUqdY nOsI4fyaI5lmKulzp3Q2fUVpAhw6fxoYsdh3N3O3fXs8TeTtN+FMeA83i5LeYQEtmelX gnfKZCW6GQ7vJn6UvYopTGyNZpK5njfR3g5KPn/xH+vASW8AFqNxlM2PhdjYJZnD1Dgd fXIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jE+07o5EQm5Lq62XyvPt+Ph9qeIaR1UJnYz5JJ4DjMbDsiaIyJ Pd39oPIthooAfZrEBRZet6xaTGEeUSIE X-Received: by 10.80.148.167 with SMTP id s36mr395899eda.106.1503386284788; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 00:18:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.134 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 00:18:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 00:18:04 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Elec Rad Fans To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c43d4770f6505575265f8" --f403045c43d4770f6505575265f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nothing fancy, but I just did a thorough job of exit ducting out of 3 of my 4 coolers. Intercooler, oil cooler, right coolant radiator. I didn't do an exit duct out of the left rad due to it's close proximity to the turbo. I just couldn't realistically make anything that would fit and be efficient and I figured it wouldn't hurt to have a little airflow over the turbo. Actually there is more to it as well. I spent a lot of time ensuring the cowl is well sealed to ensure that no air gets in there that hasn't done some work for me by passing through a cooler first. This included the diffuser inlet seal to the cooler face, but I believe the greatest gain was made around the prop spinner. I believe that Ed had warned of the pressure behind the spinner causing undesirable airflows into the cowl. I couldn't remember the details, but it didn't matter, I just knew I needed to block it. So while I was doing other fiberglass work I extended this face of the cowl by 3/8" to a closer tolerance with the back of the spinner. Then I made a lip seal on the top & bottom halves of the cowl opening around the PSRU to seal tightly here. This second part can be easily done on any completed aircraft, but the first one is much more work, however for those of you that have not yet reached that part of your project, I recommend that you pay attention to this detail. When I built my engine mount, I only had the engine but no PSRU and no cowl, and no idea what prop I would use so with the data I could get from Tracy and Vans I did my best to build a mount that would put a prop spinner close to the face of the cowl. In any event, at that time I had no idea of the importance this would be later in improving airflows through the coolers. One other change I made that I've been meaning to bring up in another thread, that really only applies to those of us using 2 coolers (evap cores). Way back when, there was extensive discussion as to whether series or parallel plumbing would be best for cooling. The consensus at the time was that the less restrictive flow through 2 parallel rads would be best. Since I was also using an EWP (DaviesCraig) and many thought it would not have enough flow to adequately cool the rotary (just ask Paul Lamar, he'll tell you!), I figured I'd better go with the parallel rads. To do this I had to make some compromises in my flow routing and with everything else being equal, one of the rads will always have more flow than the other. But I was never quite sure that I had made the right choice as a series configuration would ensure all coolant goes through both rads for a maximum delta T. So with the opportunity during this rebuild I revisited this idea. My desire to include the Mocal Laminova heat exchanger pushed the scales over to the series configuration as trying to install it in any sort of parallel configuration that I could dream up would involve way too many ugly compromises. But a series install just fit beautifully and greatly improved upon the original plumbing. But will it work???? I gotta admit I'm holding my breath on this one, but so far it looks promising with all the ground runs. But so many other things have changed as well that I still won't be able to say definitively which way is better. Here's a pic of the right rad exit duct. Rather crude but it works. https://goo.gl/photos/xt5XAKJkLKDbhJv49 Here's a pic of the cowl exit louvers that seal to this duct https://goo.gl/photos/8hqs481xcMbzqJLS8 https://goo.gl/photos/RwbTrrD2R5aMzDV39 Here's a few pics that show how I had to extend the face of the cowl to close the gap to the spinner https://goo.gl/photos/3Q2A5oH83UBP1jKdA https://goo.gl/photos/cxK7AeqLBLd5QzVj6 https://goo.gl/photos/nL5VqeMj9JkVZe9Y9 Here's the small but challenging intercooler. Unfortunately I don't have a pic right now that shows the backside of this exit duct where all the work was. But I made it from aluminum because of its very close proximity to the turbo. The crude fiberglass box seals tightly to the face of the intercooler and to the exit. So air takes a bit of a convoluted route. https://goo.gl/photos/FHEMMByCW66XXveX6 https://goo.gl/photos/QoroeJ5kHBQBF8VE6 Old Oil cooler inlet https://goo.gl/photos/efNBgoJVdYALPSiC7 New oil cooler inlet https://goo.gl/photos/jzY8WovbETXpGWdS7 Oil cooler exit duct. This seals tightly to the bottom of the cowl to use the stock RV outlet. I used aluminum here because of the engine mount it would be extremely difficult to do any sort of fiberglass molding. Aluminum I was able to bend and twist to get it into place then straighten it out. https://goo.gl/photos/Ydso5pKWtuKt3xTf8 Todd -- sorry for the long winded reply, now my fingers are sore... :-) Todd Bartrim On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 10:41 PM, steve Izett wrote: > Thanks Todd > Yep in Perth near Andrew. > Do you have photos of your duct work and what made the difference? > Steve > > On 22 Aug 2017, at 1:10 pm, Todd Bartrim > wrote: > > Long ago I had this same idea. To test it I put a cheap fan (one of those > fans they sell for truckers to put on their dash) behind the right rad. I= t > wasn't a great install, but it made no measurable difference on the groun= d > and after a short flight the fan blades had completely broken off. I'm su= re > you would see better results with something like this > http://daviescraig.com.au/product/8-thermatic-fan-12v- > 0135/8-thermatic-fan-12v-0135 > But I'm still not convinced it's worth it. The work that I've done with > improved ducting seems to have made a world of difference and my temps ar= e > staying under control even with extensive ground testing. The temps get > hottest after shutdown which I never experienced before (more in a separa= te > post). > However I would be curious to know the results of testing with a proper > fan. > You are in Australia, correct? Davies Craig is a company from down under > and I'm using their EWP's in my plane. They seem good to talk to, so give > them a call and tell them what you plan on using it for. > > Todd --- It's a good thing I have no neighbors close enough to see me or > they'd think I went nuts today, taxing circles in my driveway. > > Todd Bartrim > > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Andrew Martin < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Steve, I don't think they are really an option, not much heat is >> generated at idle/taxi speeds, just weight and drag you don't need. othe= r >> aspects will be at play like your exits etc. >> There was tufting put inside a Bonanza cowl a few years back which showe= d >> complete reversal of flow through the cowl, explained why it would cool >> better on the ground with wind up its ass. prop probably sucking the air >> out. >> I think this airflow stuff is sometimes dark magic. >> Andrew >> >> Regards >> >> Andrew Martin >> >> +61 0427477144 <+61%20427%20477%20144> >> +61 8 6365 5648 <+61%208%206365%205648> >> +61 8 9924 1145 <+61%208%209924%201145> >> andrew@martinag.com.au >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 10:08 AM, steve Izett < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys >>> I seam to remember way back something being said about elect fans on >>> exchangers in aircraft. >>> The reason for my question is if your prop doesn=E2=80=99t have very go= od blades >>> for pushing air in tight to the spinner would an elec be helpful for >>> sitting and taxiing? >>> My concern would be restriction of the incoming air once at speed and >>> how it would go at high air speeds even with a good diffuser. >>> Has anyone ever used one? >>> I tried to emulate tracy=E2=80=99s 20b setup on the Renesis 4port >>> I=E2=80=99ve got 540CI of Water cooler and 193CI of Oil cooler (out of = RX7 turbo >>> from memory) >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve Izett >>> >>> >> > > --f403045c43d4770f6505575265f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nothing fancy, but I just did a thorough job of exit ducti= ng out of 3 of my 4 coolers. Intercooler, oil cooler, right coolant radiato= r. I didn't do an exit duct out of the left rad due to it's close p= roximity to the turbo. I just couldn't realistically make anything that= would fit and be efficient and I figured it wouldn't hurt to have a li= ttle airflow over the turbo.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Actually there is more to it = as well. I spent a lot of time ensuring the cowl is well sealed to ensure t= hat no air gets in there that hasn't done some work for me by passing t= hrough a cooler first. This included the diffuser inlet seal to the cooler = face, but I believe the greatest gain was made around the prop spinner. I b= elieve that Ed had warned of the pressure behind the spinner causing undesi= rable airflows into the cowl. I couldn't remember the details, but it d= idn't matter, I just knew I needed to block it. So while I was doing ot= her fiberglass work I extended this face of the cowl by 3/8" to a clos= er tolerance with the back of the spinner. Then I made a lip seal on the to= p & bottom halves of the cowl opening around the PSRU to seal tightly h= ere. This second part can be easily done on any completed aircraft, but the= first one is much more work, however for those of you that have not yet re= ached that part of your project, I recommend that you pay attention to this= detail.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 When I built my engine mount, I only had th= e engine but no PSRU and no cowl, and no idea what prop I would use so with= the data I could get from Tracy and Vans I did my best to build a mount th= at would put a prop spinner close to the face of the cowl. In any event, at= that time I had no idea of the importance this would be later in improving= airflows through the coolers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0One ot= her change I made that I've been meaning to bring up in another thread,= that really only applies to those of us using 2 coolers (evap cores). Way = back when, there was extensive discussion as to whether series or parallel = plumbing would be best for cooling. The consensus at the time was that the = less restrictive flow through 2 parallel rads would be best. Since I was al= so using an EWP (DaviesCraig) and many thought it would not have enough flo= w to adequately cool the rotary (just ask Paul Lamar, he'll tell you!),= I figured I'd better go with the parallel rads. To do this I had to ma= ke some compromises in my flow routing and with everything else being equal= , one of the rads will always have more flow than the other. But I was neve= r quite sure that I had made the right choice as a series configuration wou= ld ensure all coolant goes through both rads for a maximum delta T.
=C2=A0 So with the opportunity during this rebuild I revisited this idea= . My desire to include the Mocal Laminova heat exchanger pushed the scales = over to the series configuration as trying to install it in any sort of par= allel configuration that I could dream up would involve way too many ugly c= ompromises. But a series install just fit beautifully and greatly improved = upon the original plumbing.
=C2=A0 But will it work???? I gotta a= dmit I'm holding my breath on this one, but so far it looks promising w= ith all the ground runs. But so many other things have changed =C2=A0as wel= l that I still won't be able to say definitively which way is better.

Here's a pic of the right rad exit duct. Rather= crude but it works.
Here'= s a pic of the cowl exit louvers that seal to this duct

Here's a few pics that show how I had to extend the face of the cowl= to close the gap to the spinner
https://goo.gl/photo= s/cxK7AeqLBLd5QzVj6
Here's the small but challenging intercooler. Unfortunatel= y I don't have a pic right now that shows the backside of this exit duc= t where all the work was. But I made it from aluminum because of its very c= lose proximity to the turbo. The crude fiberglass box seals tightly to the = face of the intercooler and to the exit. So air takes a bit of a convoluted= route.

Old Oil cooler inlet
New oil cooler inlet
https://goo.gl/photos/jzY8WovbETXpGWdS7
<= /div>
Oil cooler exit duct. This seals tightly to the bottom of the cow= l to use the stock RV outlet. I used aluminum here because of the engine mo= unt it would be extremely difficult to do any sort of fiberglass molding. A= luminum I was able to bend and twist to get it into place then straighten i= t out.

Todd =C2= =A0-- sorry for the long winded reply, now my fingers are sore... :-)
=





=

Todd Bartri= m

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 10:41 PM, steve Izet= t <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Todd
= Yep in Perth near Andrew.
Do you have photos of your duct work an= d what made the difference?
Steve
On 22 Aug 2017, at 1:10 pm, Todd Bartrim <= ;flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:

Long ago I had this same idea. To test it I put a cheap fan (one o= f those fans they sell for truckers to put on their dash) behind the right = rad. It wasn't a great install, but it made no measurable difference on= the ground and after a short flight the fan blades had completely broken o= ff. I'm sure you would see better results with something like thisBut I'm still not convinced it's worth it. The work that I'v= e done with improved ducting seems to have made a world of difference and m= y temps are staying under control even with extensive ground testing. The t= emps get hottest after shutdown which I never experienced before (more in a= separate post).
=C2=A0 However I would be curious to know the re= sults of testing with a proper fan.
You are in Australia, correct= ? Davies Craig is a company from down under and I'm using their EWP'= ;s in my plane. They seem good to talk to, so give them a call and tell the= m what you plan on using it for.

Todd --- =C2=A0It= 's a good thing I have no neighbors close enough to see me or they'= d think I went nuts today, taxing circles in my driveway.
=

Todd Bartrim

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 = at 8:08 PM, Andrew Martin <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Steve, I don't think they are r= eally an option, not much heat is generated at idle/taxi speeds, just weigh= t and drag you don't need. other aspects will be at play like your exit= s etc.
There was tufting put inside a Bonanza cowl a few years bac= k which showed complete reversal of flow through the cowl, explained why it= would cool better on the ground with wind up its ass. prop probably suckin= g the air out.
I think this airflow stuff is sometimes dark magic.=
Andrew


On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 = at 10:08 AM, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi Guys
I seam to remember wa= y back something being said about elect fans on exchangers in aircraft.
The reason for my question is if your prop doesn=E2=80=99t have very= good blades for pushing air in tight to the spinner would an elec be helpf= ul for sitting and taxiing?
My concern would be restriction of th= e incoming air once at speed and how it would go at high air speeds even wi= th a good diffuser.
Has anyone ever used one?
I tried t= o emulate tracy=E2=80=99s 20b setup on the Renesis 4port=C2=A0
I= =E2=80=99ve got 540CI of Water cooler and 193CI of Oil cooler (out of RX7 t= urbo from memory)

<GSIIRG5.JPG>= <GSIIRG6.JPG><GSIIRG7.JPG><GSI= IRG8.JPG>

Steve Izett





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