X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=TjB8f1kKGn1WZNrm+o+feg==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=xPyZ54XvAAAA:8 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=O18epttQU0z9MtTVYu0A:9 a=PvJ4tOibF_WeCoj0:21 a=hF4mV-4bitiCw8Ko:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Tr8nuKu5vpAA:10 a=HfdpfQiixUcA:10 a=h_LIkRhSF_uVW7b8PXEA:9 a=VUOlceJRovz35ReY:21 a=z84zyDuRabQSiXHz:21 a=Ie1ZgQ8hrbIs8nRJ:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=LQCduUwlY3eUW_MavTj7:22 From: "Todd Bartrim" Received: from mail-wr0-f181.google.com ([209.85.128.181] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10033365 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 16:53:37 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.128.181; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr0-f181.google.com with SMTP id k46so34146017wre.2 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 13:53:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=G0fwn++rzQM0jOJZK1rRhIxxTx66d64lzlqUPjHAJM8=; b=FHSrJ/KFY24j2xXX7MCKdXfNlG+knD1waLpGHGxmKpGBdUoXXh5vvuKAqixbv8lPkk 81Kbgs1DI5X57GHWzTEuRSLZezXzdMp/SVFSOK1srPn4ruwRq2QyaJpZd/qO+qBH90Dx FVJXZc2WYgViCHuPZX/5xWN9Zcfbn6ixlJPARdHgmQp0nHW2CAgXUHWMSpu52B6RGyTz dVL7rMEZ261f4WGHALhbr0xpRH5rkus5sP78IWfeOzegzhr+/8MmYgmUZ3p0gD8bO1TY xoU6eWRg1Ycccrp7qqIV0kOW2JOpTl5NnGMDa5alA/EXlrrqAtOjjxJRIEsW67HgHmeY QswQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=G0fwn++rzQM0jOJZK1rRhIxxTx66d64lzlqUPjHAJM8=; b=HvCWzF9H7+DVZUlriVwrQjWqkji5LyDSzemTJifpDkT7bUxYSxuj/OY//EV+F3buuP q3wWbujJUlHG2F5I1hjmH0Yt6rkkTnBbtK4O7DMUpwCtl/yhXIhd1vbt5FTn7zYTZv8f t92DOV55+Ry5C/UHzbTs3H1J/rntW9GJGo9EY3qhp1UugyEEE04kBFH+wJW5wXxkZMMO F6aR+7RzSZTmQWCMGpvJUy6qPz1KoqGVM0ewID2ojVdNToM8EPKdTK68aQYQwCaSqpmZ qITyD+VDmnw1xES4iKKL9fHxPoFDmiHh37cWgn4DCQ3IlIqDyeoM+qEzhwnG5MNtjFh9 NcFA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jU20/ZQ4rwvnwzXZ4RUsMeSN0Gu/kneRqlfKh1yREJl5rVSar0 bLkB0MSJ/ZBiQEui2Sye3HAXEsuJww== X-Received: by 10.80.192.90 with SMTP id u26mr4205444edd.155.1503348799938; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 13:53:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.134 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 13:53:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 13:53:18 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1cc62431a6fb055749ab91" --94eb2c1cc62431a6fb055749ab91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H Will; That's an ambitious project you've got on your hands, but it looks like you've been quite tenacious and not given up despite the challenges. The list has a fairly small size limit for attachments, so I find it best to simply upload them in full resolution to a site such as google photos, and just post the link instead. Todd Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> Todd Bartrim On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 1:30 PM, william Aldridge < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D16831 > > The above link is the build thread for my plane. Not very far along but > just got a permanent workshop so hopefully it'll pick up the pace. > > I tried attaching a few pics but got a message fail for too big a message > > Will > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Todd Bartrim > Date: 8/21/17 12:17 PM (GMT-07:00) > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers > > Hi Will; > Tracy has given you a good rule of thumb for sizing, so I'll just add = a > few comments. > First the oil cooler. It seems these days that many consider the stock oi= l > cooler to be too restrictive and they may be right so it may be worth > investigating other options, however as Tracy just mentioned, he has had > good luck with the stock cooler. Which is what I like to hear as I too am > using a stock cooler. If I was to change it, the replacement would have t= o > be exactly the same size as I'm not in any mood to do more fiberglassing, > painting, etc on the cowl. I believe the stock cooler did change a fair b= it > over the years and I'm not even sure what year mine was from, but there > could be some variation in stock coolers that you may have to consider. > Rads have also changed in preference over the years I've been on this > list. Air conditioner evaporator cores seem to have fallen out of favor, > but at one time they were quite commonly used likely due to the ease of > mounting them directly behind the air inlets on either side of the ever > popular RV aircraft and similar airframes. Which is exactly what I have. > Tracy, Ed and others also successfully used this configuration if I recal= l. > Tracey may add more here, but I know his RV4 Otter was cooled this way, b= ut > his higher powered 20B RV8 likely has more cooling requirements than coul= d > be provided for with these coolers. > Your airframe and it's configuration will have a large effect on your > choice of cooler(s). What is that you are building? And how far along are > you? I made the choice to use a rotary back when I was just building the > tail feathers, so engine considerations were always on my mind throughout > the building process. > You'll find on this list that nobody will tell you how you have to build > your engine install, you left that behind on the other list, however aski= ng > questions, posting pics, etc will usually earn a few insightful comments. > And at times when the list is quiet it helps to get us talking again. > So when you're at a stage where you can take some pics of your current > install, feel free to share them. > > Todd, feeling eclipse envy :-( > > Todd Bartrim > > On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 6:42 PM, william Aldridge < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Ok I've spent the last few years on Paul Lamars list and got tired of it= . >> I'm designing and building my own design and was wondering what you guys >> say is the right size for the water and oil coolers? I plan on p-portin= g >> the engine so am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that= go >> into rad sizing but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling >> system, how much volume do i need? I've got a cross counter flow setup >> drawn in now that is about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the face an= d >> about 4.5 inches deep. The water cooler will be mounted perpendicular = to >> the airstream with an adjustable exit ramp. For the oil cooler I=E2=80= =99m >> planning on using a standard rx 7 oil cooler that will use a wedge diffu= ser >> on the intake and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling. I >> will also have quite a bit of airflow around the engine itself. That wi= ll >> probably take the airspeed down somewhat but it=E2=80=99s such a slick s= mall >> airframe that I think it could get uncomfortably close to Vne in level >> flight, so a little unnecessary drag might be a good thing. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Will Aldridge >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for >> Windows 10 >> >> >> >> *From: *Todd Bartrim >> *Sent: *Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:56 PM >> *To: *Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: Coolers >> >> >> >> Another great example of how tech changes our lives. Back when, we had t= o >> guess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few clicks on Amazon a= nd >> 2 days later we can have all the investigative tools we need to know >> instead of guessing. >> >> >> >> [image: >> https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-an= imated-no-repeat-v1.gif] >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Just a point to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting. >> >> >> >> On the Dyke Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl. The >> other water cooler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes. The air >> exited the cooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and was supposed= to >> go down and out the bottom. It didn't do that. >> >> >> >> What it did was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl. The air >> hit the firewall and then spun around clockwise. I discovered what was >> happening during the investigation of why some hoses were melting. I >> constructed a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw a >> significant drop in temps. >> >> >> >> All that is to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as >> the flow outside. Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on >> hoses, wires, and engine mount tubes. I have a tiny camera with a 15ft >> cord that turns my phone into a video surveillance monitor. I'd stick i= t >> in various places under the cowl and see how the air flows with the engi= ne >> running. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> I didn't crunch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat >> exchanger, I only knew that in climb and level flight I had different >> cooling between oil & water and figured I could balance it out with this >> heat exchanger at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't increase >> the cooling of the system as a whole. >> >> It should be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat >> exchangers. So if a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate cooli= ng >> to begin with, then this will do nothing to address that. >> >> In my case I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' >> ASL in 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had >> plenty of room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would d= rop >> but my oil temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this wou= ld >> help me borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address cooling >> shortfalls properly. >> >> I believe the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position of my >> oil cooler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good). >> >> Now I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address >> improper cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct= I >> also did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and right coolan= t >> radiator. I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator due to it= 's >> close proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered with the spac= e >> required for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a goo= d >> idea to have some airflow over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted m= y >> inlets and left the air to find it's own way out of the cowl through wha= t I >> believed were adequate sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time >> researching cooling air flows and finally was able to beat it into me th= at >> exit ducting is every bit as important as inlet ducting. >> >> The other change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is >> I bought a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I also cut it d= own >> from 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruise speed with the >> accompanying increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM. >> >> So with all these changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have >> any benefit but I'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cos= t >> at this point is a few pounds which if I need to get rid of that I'll ju= st >> start jogging again... not a bad idea anyways :-) >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, >> wrote: >> >> As a side note to these observations there is something to be said about >> overcooling the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher >> altitudes or in cold conditions.) >> >> An oil-to-coolant system help to moderate that scenario. >> >> >> >> T Mann >> >> >> >> Sent from Windows Mail >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [image: >> https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-an= imated-no-repeat-v1.gif] >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > --94eb2c1cc62431a6fb055749ab91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
H Will;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0That's an ambitious project y= ou've got on your hands, but it looks like you've been quite tenaci= ous and not given up despite the challenges.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 The lis= t has a fairly small size limit for attachments, so I find it best to simpl= y upload them in full resolution to a site such as google photos, and just = post the link instead.

Todd

3D"" Virus-free. www.avast.com

Todd Bartrim

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 1:30 PM, william Ald= ridge <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


The above link is the build thread for my plane. Not very far along bu= t just got a permanent workshop so hopefully it'll pick up the pace.

I tried attaching a few pics but got a message fail for too big a mess= age

Will


Sent from my Verizo= n, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: 8/21/17 12:17 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers

Hi Will;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Tracy has given you a good rule of thumb for sizing, so I= 'll just add a few comments.=C2=A0
First the oil cooler. It seems these days that many consider the stock= oil cooler to be too restrictive and they may be right so it may be worth = investigating other options, however as Tracy just mentioned, he has had go= od luck with the stock cooler. Which is what I like to hear as I too am using a stock cooler. If I was to chang= e it, the replacement would have to be exactly the same size as I'm not= in any mood to do more fiberglassing, painting, etc on the cowl. I believe= the stock cooler did change a fair bit over the years and I'm not even sure what year mine was from, but = there could be some variation in stock coolers that you may have to conside= r.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Rads have also changed in preference over the years I'= ;ve been on this list. Air conditioner evaporator cores seem to have fallen= out of favor, but at one time they were quite commonly used likely due to = the ease of mounting them directly behind the air inlets on either side of the ever popular RV aircraft and similar airf= rames. Which is exactly what I have. Tracy, Ed and others also successfully= used this configuration if I recall. Tracey may add more here, but I know = his RV4 Otter was cooled this way, but his higher powered 20B RV8 likely has more cooling requirements than c= ould be provided for with these coolers.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Your airframe and it's configuration will have a lar= ge effect on your choice of cooler(s). What is that you are building? And h= ow far along are you? I made the choice to use a rotary back when I was jus= t building the tail feathers, so engine considerations were always on my mind throughout the building process.
You'll find on this list that nobody will tell you how you have to= build your engine install, you left that behind on the other list, however= asking questions, posting pics, etc will usually earn a few insightful com= ments. And at times when the list is quiet it helps to get us talking again.
So when you're at a stage where you can take some pics of your cur= rent install, feel free to share them.

Todd, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 feeling eclipse envy :-(

Todd Bartrim

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 6:42 PM, william Aldridg= e <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Ok I've spent the last few years on Paul Lamars = list and got tired of it. I'm designing and building my own design and = was wondering what you guys say is the right size for the water and oil coo= lers?=C2=A0 I plan on p-porting the engine so am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that go into rad si= zing but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling system, ho= w much volume do i need? =C2=A0 I've got a cross counter flow setup dra= wn in now that is about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the face and about 4.5 inches deep. =C2=A0 The water cooler will = be mounted perpendicular to the airstream with an adjustable exit ramp.=C2= =A0 For the oil cooler I=E2=80=99m planning on using a standard rx 7 oil co= oler that will use a wedge diffuser on the intake and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling.=C2=A0I will also have = quite a bit of airflow around the engine itself.=C2=A0 That will probably t= ake the airspeed down somewhat but it=E2=80=99s such a slick small airframe= that I think it could get uncomfortably close to Vne in level flight, so a little unnecessary drag might be a good thing. <= u>

=C2=A0

Thanks,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Will Aldridge=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Another great example of how tech changes our lives.= Back when, we had to guess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few= clicks on Amazon and 2 days later we can have all the investigative tools = we need to know instead of guessing.

=C2=A0

3D"https://ipmcd=

Virus-free= . www.avast.com


Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley &l= t;flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Just a poi= nt to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting.

=C2= =A0

On the Dyk= e Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl.=C2=A0 The other water= cooler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes.=C2=A0 The air exited the cooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and was su= pposed to go down and out the bottom.=C2=A0 It didn't do that.

=C2= =A0

What it di= d was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl.=C2=A0 The air hit the = firewall and then spun around clockwise.=C2=A0 I discovered what was happening during the investigation of why some hoses were melting= .=C2=A0 I constructed a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and s= aw a significant drop in temps.

=C2= =A0

All that i= s to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as the flow outsi= de. Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses, wires, and engine mount tubes.=C2=A0 I have a tiny camer= a with a 15ft cord that turns my phone into a video surveillance monitor.= =C2=A0 I'd stick it in various places under the cowl and see how the ai= r flows with the engine running.

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

On Sunday, Aug= ust 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=C2=A0

I didn'= ;t crunch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat exchanger, I= only knew that in climb and level flight I had different cooling between oil & water and figured I could balance it out with th= is heat exchanger at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't incr= ease the cooling of the system as a whole.

=C2=A0It s= hould be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat exchangers. So i= f a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate cooling to begin with, then this will do nothing to address that.

In my case= I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' ASL in= 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty of room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps= would drop but my oil temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured= this would help me borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't addr= ess cooling shortfalls properly.

=C2=A0 I b= elieve the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position of my oil coo= ler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good).

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Now I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address im= proper cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I also did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and r= ight coolant radiator. I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator= due to it's close proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered= with the space required for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good idea to have some airf= low over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my inlets and left the air= to find it's own way out of the cowl through what I believed were adeq= uate sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researching cooling air flows and finally was able to beat i= t into me that exit ducting is every bit as important as inlet ducting.<= /u>

=C2=A0 The= other change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is I bough= t a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I also cut it down from 76" to 70". This should give me a higher c= ruise speed with the accompanying increase in cooling airflow with the same= RPM.

So with al= l these changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have any bene= fit but I'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cost at this point is a few pounds which if I need to get ri= d of that I'll just start jogging again... not a bad idea anyways :-)

=C2= =A0

On Sun, Au= g 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

As a side = note to these observations there is something to be said about overcooling = the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher altitudes or in cold conditions.)

An oil-to-= coolant system help to moderate that scenario.

=C2= =A0

T Mann<= /u>

=C2= =A0

Sent from = Windows Mail

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

3D"https://ipmcd=

Virus-free= . www.avast.com

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



--94eb2c1cc62431a6fb055749ab91--