X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=d9nYjDofizGUgDA3bwd8Cw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=7uxs7THqg2-x-pss5wEA:9 a=JFcVFhchaH2O5m-H:21 a=XAmq5N_ryK7bBWXy:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Tr8nuKu5vpAA:10 a=YcVSf7uXWBJZgaauKvoA:9 a=zVS_muHLQ2T5ajph:21 a=SScdqPkydKdMeQPB:21 a=fHn3MJ7R-P96IW9n:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Todd Bartrim" Received: from mail-wr0-f178.google.com ([209.85.128.178] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10032811 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 13:36:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.128.178; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr0-f178.google.com with SMTP id p8so41024508wrf.5 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:36:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tv6/BIGqevJwVVxO/fsR7EvN8oOha2v7KODVfVrIIlg=; b=NNhmQzdq9b1xjZF4TQIG99VxzdEKAeqc6uBGyl4J/T9BwH3gO7LKpJWbP3vLsJOHVE evM6BnV74dQs62SQTGvZoWVxcFJdNRToIgPhk3hdtIssI26r1vu4c9/uZUj26Gg/p7p1 L703krXyULxmkxarIGDsoGSKmpP/L+b+1eISUgCKRaFFZ2KQ7Jy8My+ZzivQaCBvIZBQ /+wbOwI7/w0u4qIlIc0I8uuP0XiqcYIdmCixRibFBIZL0I3U2BXmSZP/g2AzMCmPQkRo 491yFerVXCioE1dxnxShbVsfODNJXKSc77RrGe1+ld1k11KBOGQVnNs39zbTRKNZyhe1 rG6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=tv6/BIGqevJwVVxO/fsR7EvN8oOha2v7KODVfVrIIlg=; b=SCND5Surut0ffWamX1y3ndGcfSPZ5KlavKti9N/pLft603ObxKXJio3HqlSb4Z8c6b 93uFQ2aJe24R8be0UcgpJn56JOWxwXQTB1EnXGcmvxq0fnMyY/dmO0WNC6Dv9YZ3IskP j3zR/PM8QELZwMpMf5J4GABBsYNnYgv2reat51k6szZtYqeJEO+JE3VgLOjkSrRbhHtk vl6h2iABWiCrKXNNzggR3IBy4MktN6fAAio5Y0DboGowq0x+2cI2ccRQTGpPZryx1hF3 fZK8QukZMv+V+a4UOlIgNbQFw5l+84kpxr6MNI2wL3IFDDFa4BoiFvLwhC4Qkz8nNcRn 87fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jjgLk2l63zds48lB7XZ9fpCaUNnxrI4gQXkK3xqB/iprUB8jOU YaJbh2jp3XOn1oUwCcfU9Z4osv9FIg== X-Received: by 10.80.210.215 with SMTP id q23mr9892029edg.305.1503336945850; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:35:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.134 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:35:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:35:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Eclipse viewing? To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f40304388c54a29f38055746e836" --f40304388c54a29f38055746e836 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Too cool, being able to fly an airplane you built yourself to a best view of this celestial event. Let us know how it was. I'm feeling envious... again. We are only getting 70% up here, but between the clouds and the smoke from wildfires it's extremely underwhelming. Todd... feeling like winter is here suddenly. Todd Bartrim On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Bobby J. Hughes < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Reminds me of that song. Suddenly I'm feeling so vain : ) > > > > You probably think this emails about you=E2=80=94don=E2=80=99t you =E2=80= =93 don=E2=80=99t you > > > > HAHAHAH > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *Sent:* Monday, August 21, 2017 8:01 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Eclipse viewing? > > > > Anyone else planing to see from the air? > > > > I made last minute plans to see total eclipse yesterday when I heard that > a 90 % eclipse is like sex without a happy ending. > > > > The totality band is about 300 miles north of me (at my off grid CO shack= ) > so me & M plan to rendezvous with totality near Casper, WY. No landing, > will watch from air then return to Salida,CO. I hear that it might be > possible to see the approaching/receding moon shadow at start and end of > totality. > > > > Reminds me of that song. Suddenly I'm feeling so vain : ) > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Aug 21, 2017, at 06:46, Tracy wrote: > > Hi Will, > > My rule of thumb for rad core volume is between 2 and 3 CI per HP. At 37= 5 > CI you would be on the small side but I think your calculation of CI is > off. Thick rads can be efficient but will need more CI. > > > > The needed CI is of course affected by core design, duct efficiency, > aircraft speed, etc. At 4.5" thick you should be in at least a 200 mph t= op > speed design, otherwise you might not have enough diffuser pressure to > force the air through. > > > > Other thoughts: Airflow around the engine is a waste. Very little > cooling for a lot of drag. There is no such thing as drag being a good > idea unless you are landing (flaps) or flying a Stuka dive bomber. A > little Cooling Airflow around coils, alternators, electronics, etc. is a > good idea. > > > > Personally I've had good luck with the RX-7 oil cooler. There is a big > mismatch between the delta P air pressure required between that cooler an= d > your rad though. Separate ducts would be a good idea otherwise the oil > cooler might hog most of the airflow. Even the pressure on the back sid= e > of the heat exchangers can affect the balance but it sounds like you are > going for separate outlets so may not be a factor here. > > > > Let us know how the project goes! > > > > Tracy Crook > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Aug 20, 2017, at 19:42, william Aldridge > wrote: > > Ok I've spent the last few years on Paul Lamars list and got tired of it. > I'm designing and building my own design and was wondering what you guys > say is the right size for the water and oil coolers? I plan on p-porting > the engine so am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that = go > into rad sizing but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling > system, how much volume do i need? I've got a cross counter flow setup > drawn in now that is about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the face and > about 4.5 inches deep. The water cooler will be mounted perpendicular t= o > the airstream with an adjustable exit ramp. For the oil cooler I=E2=80= =99m > planning on using a standard rx 7 oil cooler that will use a wedge diffus= er > on the intake and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling. I > will also have quite a bit of airflow around the engine itself. That wil= l > probably take the airspeed down somewhat but it=E2=80=99s such a slick sm= all > airframe that I think it could get uncomfortably close to Vne in level > flight, so a little unnecessary drag might be a good thing. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Will Aldridge > > > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Todd Bartrim > *Sent: *Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:56 PM > *To: *Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: Coolers > > > > Another great example of how tech changes our lives. Back when, we had to > guess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few clicks on Amazon an= d > 2 days later we can have all the investigative tools we need to know > instead of guessing. > > > > [image: > https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-ani= mated-no-repeat-v1.gif] > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > Todd Bartrim > > > > On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Just a point to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting. > > > > On the Dyke Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl. The othe= r > water cooler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes. The air exited t= he > cooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and was supposed to go down > and out the bottom. It didn't do that. > > > > What it did was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl. The air > hit the firewall and then spun around clockwise. I discovered what was > happening during the investigation of why some hoses were melting. I > constructed a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw a > significant drop in temps. > > > > All that is to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as th= e > flow outside. Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses= , > wires, and engine mount tubes. I have a tiny camera with a 15ft cord tha= t > turns my phone into a video surveillance monitor. I'd stick it in variou= s > places under the cowl and see how the air flows with the engine running. > > > > > > On Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > I didn't crunch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat > exchanger, I only knew that in climb and level flight I had different > cooling between oil & water and figured I could balance it out with this > heat exchanger at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't increase > the cooling of the system as a whole. > > It should be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat > exchangers. So if a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate coolin= g > to begin with, then this will do nothing to address that. > > In my case I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' AS= L > in 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty = of > room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would drop but my > oil temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this would help = me > borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address cooling shortfalls > properly. > > I believe the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position of my > oil cooler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good). > > Now I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address > improper cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct = I > also did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and right coolant > radiator. I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator due to it'= s > close proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered with the space > required for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good > idea to have some airflow over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my > inlets and left the air to find it's own way out of the cowl through what= I > believed were adequate sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time > researching cooling air flows and finally was able to beat it into me tha= t > exit ducting is every bit as important as inlet ducting. > > The other change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is = I > bought a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I also cut it down > from 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruise speed with the > accompanying increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM. > > So with all these changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have > any benefit but I'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cost > at this point is a few pounds which if I need to get rid of that I'll jus= t > start jogging again... not a bad idea anyways :-) > > > > On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, > wrote: > > As a side note to these observations there is something to be said about > overcooling the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher > altitudes or in cold conditions.) > > An oil-to-coolant system help to moderate that scenario. > > > > T Mann > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > > > [image: > https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-ani= mated-no-repeat-v1.gif] > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > > > > > --f40304388c54a29f38055746e836 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Too cool, being able to fly an airplane you built yourself= to a best view of this celestial event. Let us know how it was. I'm fe= eling envious... again.
We are only getting 70% up here, but between th= e clouds and the smoke from wildfires it's extremely underwhelming.

Todd... =C2=A0 feeling like winter is here suddenly.<= /div>

Todd B= artrim

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Bobby J. Hu= ghes <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Reminds me of that song. =C2=A0 Suddenly I'm feeling = so vain : )

=C2=A0

You probably t= hink this emails about you=E2=80=94don=E2=80=99t you =E2=80=93 don=E2=80=99= t you

=C2=A0

HAHAHAH

<= span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">From: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Monda= y, August 21, 2017 8:01 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Eclipse viewing?

<= /u>=C2=A0

Anyone else planing to see = from the air?

=C2=A0

I made= last minute plans to see total eclipse yesterday when I heard that a 90 % = =C2=A0eclipse is like sex without a happy ending. =C2=A0

<= /div>

=C2=A0

The totality band is about 300 miles n= orth of me (at my off grid CO shack) so me & M plan to rendezvous with = totality near Casper, WY. =C2=A0 No landing, will watch from air then retur= n to Salida,CO.=C2=A0 I hear that it might be possible to see the approachi= ng/receding =C2=A0moon shadow at start and end of totality.

=C2=A0

Reminds me of that song. =C2=A0 Sud= denly I'm feeling so vain : )

Sent from my iPad


On Au= g 21, 2017, at 06:46, Tracy <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= /u>

Hi Will, =C2=A0=C2=A0

=

My rule of thumb for rad core volume is between= 2 and 3 CI per HP.=C2=A0 At 375 CI you would be on the small side but I th= ink your calculation of CI is off.=C2=A0 Thick rads can be efficient but wi= ll need more CI.=C2=A0

<= u>=C2=A0

The needed CI =C2= =A0is of course affected by core design, duct efficiency, aircraft speed, e= tc.=C2=A0 At 4.5" thick you should be in at least a 200 mph top speed = design, otherwise you might not have enough diffuser pressure to force the = air through.

=C2= =A0

Other thoughts: =C2=A0Airfl= ow around the engine is a waste.=C2=A0 Very little cooling for a lot of dra= g.=C2=A0 There is no such thing as drag being a good idea unless you are la= nding (flaps) or flying a Stuka dive bomber.=C2=A0 A little Cooling Airflow= around coils, alternators, electronics, etc. is a good idea. =C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=

Personally I've had good luck with the RX-7= oil cooler. =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is a big mismatch between the delta P air p= ressure required between that cooler and your rad though.=C2=A0 Separate du= cts would be a good idea otherwise the oil cooler might hog most of the air= flow. =C2=A0 Even the pressure on the back side of the heat exchangers can = affect the balance but it sounds like you are going for separate outlets so= may not be a factor here.

=C2=A0

Let us know ho= w the project goes!

<= /u>=C2=A0

Tracy Crook=

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0

Sent from my iPa= d


On Aug 20, 2017, at 19:42, william Aldridge <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:

Ok I've sp= ent the last few years on Paul Lamars list and got tired of it. I'm des= igning and building my own design and was wondering what you guys say is th= e right size for the water and oil coolers?=C2=A0 I plan on p-porting the e= ngine so am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that go = into rad sizing but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling= system, how much volume do i need? =C2=A0 I've got a cross counter flo= w setup drawn in now that is about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the fa= ce and about 4.5 inches deep. =C2=A0 The water cooler will be mounted perpe= ndicular to the airstream with an adjustable exit ramp.=C2=A0 For the oil c= ooler I=E2=80=99m planning on using a standard rx 7 oil cooler that will us= e a wedge diffuser on the intake and exhaust out shark gills on the side of= the cowling.=C2=A0I will also have quite a bit of airflow around the engin= e itself.=C2=A0 That will probably take the airspeed down somewhat but it= =E2=80=99s such a slick small airframe that I think it could get uncomforta= bly close to Vne in level flight, so a little unnecessary drag might be a g= ood thing.

=C2=A0

Thanks,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Will Aldridge=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

=C2=A0

From: Todd Bartrim
Sent: S= unday, August 20, 2017 4:56 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subj= ect: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers

=C2=A0

Another great example of= how tech changes our lives. Back when, we had to guess at what was happeni= ng under the cowl. Now a few clicks on Amazon and 2 days later we can have = all the investigative tools we need to know instead of guessing.<= /u>

=C2=A0

3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelo=

Virus-free. www.a= vast.com


Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=

=C2=A0

On the Dyke Delta I built, I had a water cool= er under the cowl.=C2=A0 The other water cooler and oil cooler were buried = in the strakes.=C2=A0 The air exited the cooler under the cowl close to the= firewall, and was supposed to go down and out the bottom.=C2=A0 It didn= 9;t do that.

=C2=A0

What it did was set up a h= orizontal whirlwind inside the cowl.=C2=A0 The air hit the firewall and the= n spun around clockwise.=C2=A0 I discovered what was happening during the i= nvestigation of why some hoses were melting.=C2=A0 I constructed a crude da= m to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw a significant drop in temps.<= /span>

=C2=A0=

All that is to say that the airflow INS= IDE the cowl is as important as the flow outside. Today, I would tuft the e= ngine with pieces of yarn on hoses, wires, and engine mount tubes.=C2=A0 I = have a tiny camera with a 15ft cord that turns my phone into a video survei= llance monitor.=C2=A0 I'd stick it in various places under the cowl and= see how the air flows with the engine running.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I didn't crunch any numbers in my decision = to use this Laminova heat exchanger, I only knew that in climb and level fl= ight I had different cooling between oil & water and figured I could ba= lance it out with this heat exchanger at a small price in weight. It certai= nly doesn't increase the cooling of the system as a whole.

=C2=A0It should be pointed out that these are not = coolers, only heat exchangers. So if a oil/water cooling system doesn't= have adequate cooling to begin with, then this will do nothing to address = that.

In my case I found that I could = climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' ASL in 3 minutes before my c= oolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty of room on my oil temps. I= n level flight my coolant temps would drop but my oil temps would slowly in= crease to redline. So I figured this would help me borrow from Peter to pay= Paul. It still didn't address cooling shortfalls properly.

<= span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans= -serif";color:black">=C2=A0 I believe the biggest culprit in this was = the shape and position of my oil cooler inlet which was form over function = (hey, it looked good).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0No= w I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address imprope= r cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I also di= d outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and right coolant radiator= . I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator due to it's clos= e proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered with the space requi= red for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good idea t= o have some airflow over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my inlets = and left the air to find it's own way out of the cowl through what I be= lieved were adequate sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researchi= ng cooling air flows and finally was able to beat it into me that exit duct= ing is every bit as important as inlet ducting.

=C2=A0 The other change I made which I hope will have a significa= nt effect is I bought a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I als= o cut it down from 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruis= e speed with the accompanying increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM= .

So with all these changes it's u= nknown if this Laminova cooler will have any benefit but I'm certainly = not going to remove it as it it's only cost at this point is a few poun= ds which if I need to get rid of that I'll just start jogging again... = not a bad idea anyways :-)

=C2=A0=

= On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net> wrote:

<= div>

As a side note to these observations there is something to = be said about overcooling the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at= higher altitudes or in cold conditions.)

An oil-to-coolant system help to moderate that scenario.<= u>

=C2=A0

T Mann=

=C2=A0

<= /div>

Sent from Windows Mail

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-en=

<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-ser= if";color:#41424e">Virus-free. w= ww.avast.com

=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


--f40304388c54a29f38055746e836--