X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=SOai2fD6JoAywaqAkzVgVg==:117 a=Gcxronpr07aM3adkepbldQ==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=VqmtQeTB-p0A:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=M5CoVfdsCKt64wOTU6MA:9 a=2UEb0fnUJvAc-OSO:21 a=s1E-z08TnVjMmJFo:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=Xb3CnXNdLQRa2zZKGW8A:9 a=QeNTDuFM1VWF07a0:21 a=WsluyQEK2xpZsOIL:21 a=kIo4FK7fNl0EbiN6:21 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Tracy" Received: from mail-it0-f45.google.com ([209.85.214.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10032035 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:01:54 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.45; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by mail-it0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 76so32079955ith.0 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 06:01:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:from:message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version; bh=gK1GtBijGEj0+QOd+LHsz89kPKhsJ2Gi2W0KKNG1K3E=; b=IfrqgnWB/MUzbUKMLDOyMCzVz7gVpiMFvYw8HUx4rQsTzzXHA4/Jptpo5QutULII94 c1163yuNgXs8QzLTy24YrQEij8pnMKnQvl4adOwRcaah24zgPkjtjszYWbGBU8CZRuP2 Bf1fiNdiZkLXrrqVE1WA/e2tNvoxaOWvZq6OjgluKyTYhjGu63vawEjv+vpsVgepcJ/6 Z93QU82Z9lnIu0ehm08IA0TJX0nwutyMRKV1yVDUhOHcWLxOEaf/VUP2Owwgs+EbGO80 mVYKqAmJCRhLCuID2H0FQQkx7THI+G52G/N7yU3B3HqtXtISZ25sszFw8iOWEsspS8be YWYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:from:message-id:date:to :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=gK1GtBijGEj0+QOd+LHsz89kPKhsJ2Gi2W0KKNG1K3E=; b=kd7NBjBq5vgUfSLTioaZ7m+mzRvsHDBRGSp08CLguDbLw0+QXwP0v9vQ6aNbPsyHpi MPN8bmmkWlisBi2OqAs5TbwXhXnDBzzXdbSTXb3V9sNdZksqZr1l6aGaZixGkWpQwCNZ 7E5bnbhbs92V6yTFV36At3Bg98hNG87nt5TSA+W1p8u4Grjfd0dZboD0j/Po7T6xEyBV iplrDy2rekgE+ud78oi5pCSIBtlwr7OZ18g4sP0kXfKs56tLDszAThe164co18IUmGln 1eBnH4dRr2KrhH+sQEYYjteHL5uO+OYA77wAgyzON1C1iUfw5QnAbaOiTximjLTtCena sO+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5i7rSVEC8fRcUsHG5uAsbJ0JZe9sV9JfigXj7ApoLMU1tLsDULD rBkQf4JMyROzhXKEVOM= X-Received: by 10.36.195.198 with SMTP id s189mr5801022itg.119.1503320496100; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 06:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.240.219.80] (195.sub-97-44-3.myvzw.com. [97.44.3.195]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r40sm5714084ioi.57.2017.08.21.06.01.33 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Aug 2017 06:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eclipse viewing? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-85AB096B-11A7-4325-98CF-EC3342EFAC4F X-Mailer: iPad Mail (13G36) Message-Id: <80488A73-4A2C-406D-BAB3-A8769767A9F6@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 07:01:29 -0600 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-85AB096B-11A7-4325-98CF-EC3342EFAC4F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone else planing to see from the air? I made last minute plans to see total eclipse yesterday when I heard that a 9= 0 % eclipse is like sex without a happy ending. =20 The totality band is about 300 miles north of me (at my off grid CO shack) s= o me & M plan to rendezvous with totality near Casper, WY. No landing, wil= l watch from air then return to Salida,CO. I hear that it might be possible= to see the approaching/receding moon shadow at start and end of totality. Reminds me of that song. Suddenly I'm feeling so vain : ) Sent from my iPad > On Aug 21, 2017, at 06:46, Tracy wrote: >=20 > Hi Will, =20 > My rule of thumb for rad core volume is between 2 and 3 CI per HP. At 375= CI you would be on the small side but I think your calculation of CI is off= . Thick rads can be efficient but will need more CI.=20 >=20 > The needed CI is of course affected by core design, duct efficiency, airc= raft speed, etc. At 4.5" thick you should be in at least a 200 mph top spee= d design, otherwise you might not have enough diffuser pressure to force the= air through. >=20 > Other thoughts: Airflow around the engine is a waste. Very little coolin= g for a lot of drag. There is no such thing as drag being a good idea unles= s you are landing (flaps) or flying a Stuka dive bomber. A little Cooling A= irflow around coils, alternators, electronics, etc. is a good idea. =20 >=20 > Personally I've had good luck with the RX-7 oil cooler. There is a big m= ismatch between the delta P air pressure required between that cooler and yo= ur rad though. Separate ducts would be a good idea otherwise the oil cooler= might hog most of the airflow. Even the pressure on the back side of the h= eat exchangers can affect the balance but it sounds like you are going for s= eparate outlets so may not be a factor here. >=20 > Let us know how the project goes! >=20 > Tracy Crook > =20 >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 >> On Aug 20, 2017, at 19:42, william Aldridge = wrote: >>=20 >> Ok I've spent the last few years on Paul Lamars list and got tired of it.= I'm designing and building my own design and was wondering what you guys sa= y is the right size for the water and oil coolers? I plan on p-porting the e= ngine so am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that go into r= ad sizing but let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling system, ho= w much volume do i need? I've got a cross counter flow setup drawn in now t= hat is about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the face and about 4.5 inches= deep. The water cooler will be mounted perpendicular to the airstream wit= h an adjustable exit ramp. For the oil cooler I=E2=80=99m planning on using= a standard rx 7 oil cooler that will use a wedge diffuser on the intake and= exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling. I will also have quite a= bit of airflow around the engine itself. That will probably take the airsp= eed down somewhat but it=E2=80=99s such a slick small airframe that I think i= t could get uncomfortably close to Vne in level flight, so a little unnecess= ary drag might be a good thing. >> =20 >> Thanks,=20 >> =20 >> Will Aldridge=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> =20 >> From: Todd Bartrim >> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:56 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers >> =20 >> Another great example of how tech changes our lives. Back when, we had to= guess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few clicks on Amazon and 2= days later we can have all the investigative tools we need to know instead o= f guessing. >> =20 >>=20 >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>=20 >> Todd Bartrim >> =20 >> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: >> Just a point to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting. >> =20 >> On the Dyke Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl. The othe= r water cooler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes. The air exited th= e cooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and was supposed to go down a= nd out the bottom. It didn't do that. >> =20 >> What it did was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl. The air h= it the firewall and then spun around clockwise. I discovered what was happe= ning during the investigation of why some hoses were melting. I constructed= a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw a significant drop i= n temps. >> =20 >> All that is to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as th= e flow outside. Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses,= wires, and engine mount tubes. I have a tiny camera with a 15ft cord that t= urns my phone into a video surveillance monitor. I'd stick it in various pl= aces under the cowl and see how the air flows with the engine running. >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >> On Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim wrote: >> =20 >>=20 >> I didn't crunch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat exch= anger, I only knew that in climb and level flight I had different cooling be= tween oil & water and figured I could balance it out with this heat exchange= r at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't increase the cooling of t= he system as a whole. >> It should be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat exchanger= s. So if a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate cooling to begin w= ith, then this will do nothing to address that. >> In my case I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' AS= L in 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty o= f room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would drop but my o= il temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this would help me b= orrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address cooling shortfalls pro= perly. >> I believe the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position of my o= il cooler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good). >> Now I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address i= mproper cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I al= so did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and right coolant radi= ator. I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator due to it's close= proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered with the space require= d for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good idea to h= ave some airflow over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my inlets and l= eft the air to find it's own way out of the cowl through what I believed wer= e adequate sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researching cooling a= ir flows and finally was able to beat it into me that exit ducting is every b= it as important as inlet ducting. >> The other change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is I= bought a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I also cut it down f= rom 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruise speed with the accompany= ing increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM. >> So with all these changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have a= ny benefit but I'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cost at t= his point is a few pounds which if I need to get rid of that I'll just start= jogging again... not a bad idea anyways :-) >> =20 >> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, wr= ote: >> As a side note to these observations there is something to be said about o= vercooling the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher altitude= s or in cold conditions.) >> An oil-to-coolant system help to moderate that scenario. >> =20 >> T Mann >> =20 >> Sent from Windows Mail >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >> =20 --Apple-Mail-85AB096B-11A7-4325-98CF-EC3342EFAC4F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone else planing to see from the ai= r?

I made last minute plans to see total eclipse yesterday when I heard tha= t a 90 %  eclipse is like sex without a happy ending.  

The totali= ty band is about 300 miles north of me (at my off grid CO shack) so me &= M plan to rendezvous with totality near Casper, WY.   No landing, will= watch from air then return to Salida,CO.  I hear that it might be poss= ible to see the approaching/receding  moon shadow at start and end of t= otality.

Reminds me of that song.   Suddenly I'm feeling so vain : )
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 21, 2017, at 06:46, Tracy <<= a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net">flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Will,  &n= bsp;
My rule of thumb for rad core volume is between 2 and 3 CI pe= r HP.  At 375 CI you would be on the small side but I think your calcul= ation of CI is off.  Thick rads can be efficient but will need more CI.=  

The needed CI  is of course affected by= core design, duct efficiency, aircraft speed, etc.  At 4.5" thick you s= hould be in at least a 200 mph top speed design, otherwise you might not hav= e enough diffuser pressure to force the air through.

Other thoughts:  Airflow around the engine is a waste.  Very lit= tle cooling for a lot of drag.  There is no such thing as drag being a g= ood idea unless you are landing (flaps) or flying a Stuka dive bomber.  = ;A little Cooling Airflow around coils, alternators, electronics, etc. is a g= ood idea.  

Personally I've had good luck with= the RX-7 oil cooler.    There is a big mismatch between the delta= P air pressure required between that cooler and your rad though.  Sepa= rate ducts would be a good idea otherwise the oil cooler might hog most of t= he airflow.   Even the pressure on the back side of the heat exchangers= can affect the balance but it sounds like you are going for separate outlet= s so may not be a factor here.

Let us know how the p= roject goes!

Tracy Crook
   
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 20, 2017, at 19:42, w= illiam Aldridge <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:

Ok I've spent the last few years on Paul Lamars list a= nd got tired of it. I'm designing and building my own design and was wonderi= ng what you guys say is the right size for the water and oil coolers?  = I plan on p-porting the engine so am expecting 200+ hp. I know there's a lot of factors that go into rad sizing b= ut let's just say i get a moderately efficient cooling system, how much volu= me do i need?   I've got a cross counter flow setup drawn in now that i= s about 375 cu inches and 10.5 x 17.75 on the face and about 4.5 inches deep.   The water cooler will b= e mounted perpendicular to the airstream with an adjustable exit ramp. = For the oil cooler I=E2=80=99m planning on using a standard rx 7 oil cooler= that will use a wedge diffuser on the intake and exhaust out shark gills on the side of the cowling. I will also have q= uite a bit of airflow around the engine itself.  That will probably tak= e the airspeed down somewhat but it=E2=80=99s such a slick small airframe th= at I think it could get uncomfortably close to Vne in level flight, so a little unnecessary drag might be a good thing.

 

Thanks, 

 

Will Aldridge 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Todd Bartrim
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:56 PM
To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers

 

Another great example of how tech changes our lives. B= ack when, we had to guess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few cl= icks on Amazon and 2 days later we can have all the investigative tools we n= eed to know instead of guessing.

 

3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/ima==

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Todd Bartrim

 

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley <= ;flyrotary@= lancaironline.net> wrote:

Just a point= to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting.

=

 <= /o:p>

On the Dyke D= elta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl.  The other water coo= ler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes.  The air exited the cooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and was suppose= d to go down and out the bottom.  It didn't do that.<= /p>

 <= /o:p>

What it did w= as set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl.  The air hit the fire= wall and then spun around clockwise.  I discovered what was happening during the investigation of why some hoses were melting.=   I constructed a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw= a significant drop in temps.

 <= /o:p>

All that is t= o say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as the flow outside. T= oday, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses, wires, and engine mount tubes.  I have a tiny camera wi= th a 15ft cord that turns my phone into a video surveillance monitor.  I= 'd stick it in various places under the cowl and see how the air flows with t= he engine running.

 <= /o:p>

 

On Sunday, Augus= t 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

 

I didn't cru= nch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat exchanger, I only k= new that in climb and level flight I had different cooling between oil & water and figured I could balance it out with thi= s heat exchanger at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't increase t= he cooling of the system as a whole.

 It sho= uld be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat exchangers. So if a= oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate cooling to begin with, then this will do nothing to address that.=

In my case I= found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' ASL in 3 minutes b= efore my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty of room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would d= rop but my oil temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this wou= ld help me borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address cooling sh= ortfalls properly.

  I bel= ieve the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position of my oil cooler= inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good).

   = ;Now I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address impro= per cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I also did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and ri= ght coolant radiator. I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator d= ue to it's close proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered with t= he space required for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good idea to have some airfl= ow over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my inlets and left the air t= o find it's own way out of the cowl through what I believed were adequate si= zed exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time researching cooling air flows and finally was able to beat it= into me that exit ducting is every bit as important as inlet ducting.<= /o:p>

  The o= ther change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is I bought a= new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I also cut it down from 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruise speed with= the accompanying increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM.<= /span>

So with all t= hese changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have any benefit but I= 'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cost at this point is a few pounds which if I need to get rid of that I= 'll just start jogging again... not a bad idea anyways :-)=

 <= /o:p>

On Sun, Aug 2= 0, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

As a side no= te to these observations there is something to be said about overcooling the= engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher altitudes or in cold conditions.)

An oil-to-co= olant system help to moderate that scenario.

 <= /o:p>

T Mann<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Sent from Wi= ndows Mail

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/ima==

Virus-free. www.avast.com

 

 

 

= --Apple-Mail-85AB096B-11A7-4325-98CF-EC3342EFAC4F--