X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Ernest Christley" Received: from nm8-vm9.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([98.136.218.232] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9396053 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 16:01:58 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.136.218.232; envelope-from=echristley@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1485205299; bh=8fu64Zy171X6DuGCPJ20DV2Kiz1BVJlJ6s4Zy/2lr4s=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=Lc2KVYoY69LomL4OoyLRuDSkWt/r20zFa8AS8DUvtS9CBfC1DUsCMG1jif3NSu814Y4bFmhVQ0kvXWIwsgyXncdA6+Zc1w94BungCvQPDDxWO1MMDKh87vdc5SQGtr9ueOr8Y8LWo/Z3mLhyakU1mYh27yu7nlnBJSKR0oKCuTk= Received: from [98.137.12.62] by nm8.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jan 2017 21:01:39 -0000 Received: from [98.137.12.244] by tm7.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jan 2017 21:01:39 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1052.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jan 2017 21:01:39 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 390472.76692.bm@omp1052.mail.gq1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 9C5VAmQVM1nOpMNZDDIFU1NZTQMUBWS5d3gd4FscXgQQw9TQxU5jxoJakMU0APM yueoPpfa8so3sRfjzAopl6De5JelFuQIQvdN5zCJErai8RvxUa4fm3bPjwXV3Z_XWva4XlX7uHFa AJQOocyhvqGSmTrw49b72gzOVmSJQKLwYXNcRHUS0WTolRD.Y8uVCQwjwHcH6GSDxaD3RuG.0Ey8 fN.05RzrmyJ_LWVue57DWKnupdlpoiTII6ZJsqcYA9C95WbruHYNI1hnUmoMTk0WG2UOYfoys7qX 6ulFCiVcFJE67Vk6lH312qnl3wD2gGK1MJluCSi3O9GxfZctbOlvf7ZTkUWkGlujQrF8RV7grhFb 6TVXgtvLK_nhGpttZGV_AoJncDGDNkeeK.FoqMVqMy6VudXdOLk9ja3vKi.qIpTuNiSPmH0.sobb Ri8X99jmlC4RsF9otn7saFY2LmlPZuvkVba_BO71V.dbPTKWjyEnPm2VI7DKpnxKXdYuXxMPr0g6 3a_Z9US1PEXLHzYW5MV8FGGC48gtKFgQnvquiCcPw8FOOVSQ- Received: from jws300030.mail.gq1.yahoo.com by sendmailws145.mail.gq1.yahoo.com; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 21:01:39 +0000; 1485205299.014 Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 21:01:30 +0000 (UTC) Reply-To: Ernest Christley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <1959234463.3579563.1485205290773@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3579562_1128756274.1485205290769" Content-Length: 21099 ------=_Part_3579562_1128756274.1485205290769 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got a quote from Jet-Hot. =C2=A0A fairly simple Y shaped muffler system for= Corvair would be around $300.=20 On Monday, January 23, 2017 3:11 PM, ARGOLDMAN wrote: =20 I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the areas = of slip joints or ball joints.=C2=A0Also with pushers (perish the thought) = what will the effect of a hotter exhaust blowing on the propeller in a more= concentrated fashion vs a cooler blast modified by the radiation of the ex= haust system being cooled by moving air leaving the cowling?Rich=C2=A0In a = message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net writes: Lynn, Et All, I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coa= tings. I have used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early= Jet-Hot didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotar= y exhaust temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some tim= e now. They needed to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header te= mperatures. They have a service where they apply to the inside and outside = of the pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The= insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipe= s look great too. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that hav= e tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with n= o other changes using color change tape, but I think is was even better tha= n that in terms of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mo= unted low in front of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and = melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss syste= m. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I high= ly recommend them. Bill Jepson=C2=A0=20 On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover = wrote: =20 The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps aroun= d the engine. =C2=A0 The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" w= all=C2=A0turn to dust in one racing season. Literally you can crush the hea= der pipes with one hand. The outside radius of bent tubes is thinner and wi= ll =C2=A0fail sooner.That bright orange header you see in tapes of dyno run= s is exactly what your heat taped header looks like. How strong is bright o= range steel? Even stainless?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Steel under stress fails sooner.= =C2=A0 Each down pipe should be free to twist and squirm a bit as it heats = and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only thick wall stainless at that.= If you wrap the whole thing the exiting exhaust gasses will be close the= =C2=A0EGT readings on the gage. Will your car muffler hold up to 1600 degre= es. If some heat tape falls off along those pipes will the bright orange pi= pe damage anything important? =C2=A0 Then a collector to take the two or t= hree tubes (all exactly the same length) in and then the beginning of the e= xhaust system. Collector attaches with stiff springs the=C2=A0down pipes. A= strap=C2=A0fail safe in case a spring fails. Two strands of safety wire th= rough the spring loosely in case the spring fails (they like to sing along = with the engine) you know and a piece of spring will find a place to get st= uck that will be the least helpful. The collector is supported=C2=A0 loosel= y=C2=A0by a bracket that moves with the engine. =C2=A0 Then a slip joint o= r flex joint of some kind to account for the engine moving about with power= changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so-on may be mounted to the= chassis. Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good. =C2= =A0 The whole system may =C2=A0may be covered with .015" stainless shieldin= g spaced one inch at least off of the tubes.=C2=A0 Air blowing between the = shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing tempera= tures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher temps.= =C2=A0 Been there. Done that. =C2=A0 Lynn E. Hanover =C2=A0 In a message= dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net writes:=20 My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between di= fficult and impossible.=C2=A0 I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 st= ainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, =C2=A0and ducting air= flow through it.=C2=A0 Sort of a muffler over the muffler.=C2=A0 It'd be he= avy, but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket materi= al for more heat isolation.=20 =20 =20 On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote: So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that = some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures don't= like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant heat = under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to kee= p most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating on t= he inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no longer ne= w it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On my first e= ver engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was supposed to red= uce oil heating, but after I had a little detonation incident I found durin= g the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to the shock of det= onation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coating the outside of the p= ipe is any better than wrapping them as the heat is still absorbed by the m= etal but unable to radiate out. =C2=A0 =C2=A0But the biggest argument again= st ceramic coating is that once it's done, you can't modify your pipe (weld= ing etc.) without having it redone again. A good example of this just happe= ned as I'd already had my exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting = that it would change again... But then somebody on this list started saying= how great his PLX wideband sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm = out a couple of hundred bucks and having to redo my exhaust because it's re= commended that the sensor be located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 3= 6" downstream from a turbo, while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" do= wnstream. So rather than leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut i= t off along with another (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a = patch over it, then install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwr= ap, weld and re-wrap. So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or u= gly. =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal t= urbo shroud in place but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over th= at. The exhaust manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda meta= l sheild but I made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably a= ccount for the largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler i= s directly below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat tran= sfer. I made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed = together like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also= cover with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into = a sleeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler whi= ch is located inside a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it'= s location inside a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over = that one too.=20 Pics of all this and more at this link.=20 https://goo.gl/photos/ NvD5YH4jwbktESi88 Todd Bartrim=20 C-FSTB RV9 13Bturbo =20 ------=_Part_3579562_1128756274.1485205290769 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Got a quote from Jet-Hot= .  A fairly simple Y shaped muffler system for Corvair would be around= $300.


On Monday, January 23, 2017 3:11 PM,= ARGOLDMAN <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=20 =20
I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the are= as of=20 slip joints or ball joints.
 
Also with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a hotte= r=20 exhaust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a cooler= =20 blast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being cooled by movin= g air=20 leaving the cowling?
Rich
 
In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Lynn, Et All,=20
I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I= have=20 used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot did= n't=20 have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhaust=20 temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some time now. T= hey needed=20 to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures. They = have=20 a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the pipes. There = is a=20 very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The insinuative effect is = as=20 good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipes look great too. I have= used=20 them for pipes on racing motorcycles that have tight fairings. I measured= a=20 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with no other changes using color c= hange=20 tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms of radiated heat.= I=20 had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in front of the headers.= This=20 no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects, and survived a 4 hour= =20 endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work for those guys, and w= asn't=20 sponsored by them either. I highly recommend them.
Bill Jepson 

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM,= Lehanover <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net> wrote:
The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temp= s=20 around the engine.
 
The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall tur= n to=20 dust in one racing season.
Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outsid= e=20 radius of bent tubes is thinner and will  fail sooner.That bright= =20 orange header you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat t= aped=20 header looks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless?&n= bsp;=20  Steel under stress fails sooner.  Each down pipe should be f= ree=20 to twist and squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tu= bes=20 and only thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the= =20 exiting exhaust gasses will be close the EGT readings on the gage.= Will=20 your car muffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off a= long=20 those pipes will the bright orange pipe damage anything important?
 
Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the s= ame=20 length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector atta= ches=20 with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case = a=20 spring fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in = case=20 the spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and= a=20 piece of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least= =20 helpful. The collector is supported  loosely by a bracket tha= t=20 moves with the engine.
 
Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the en= gine=20 moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and = so-on=20 may be mounted to the chassis.
Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.
 
The whole system may  may be covered with .015" stainless=20 shielding spaced one inch at least off of the tubes.  Air blowing= =20 between the shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of= =20 reducing temperatures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from=20 radiating higher temps.
 
Been there. Done that.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, <= a rel=3D"nofollow" title=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" ymailto=3D"= mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net">flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
My problem=20 with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between difficult= and=20 impossible.  I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 stainles= s=20 shroud that went all the way to the air exit,  and ducting airfl= ow=20 through it.  Sort of a muffler over the muffler.  It'd be h= eavy,=20 but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket mater= ial=20 for more heat isolation.



On Friday, January 2= 0, 2017 1:48 AM,=20 Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>>=20 wrote:


So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I kno= w=20 that some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufac= tures=20 don't like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of ra= diant=20 heat under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to= try=20 to keep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic= =20 coating on the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pi= pe is=20 no longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to s= tay.=20 On my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that = was=20 supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little detonation= =20 incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come= off=20 due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic= =20 coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping them as t= he=20 heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out.
   But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is= that=20 once it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without hav= ing=20 it redone again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already = had=20 my exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting that it would cha= nge=20 again... But then somebody on this list started saying how great his = PLX=20 wideband sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple = of=20 hundred bucks and having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended = that=20 the sensor be located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstr= eam=20 from a turbo, while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream= . So=20 rather than leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off a= long=20 with another (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch = over=20 it, then install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, w= eld=20 and re-wrap.
So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly.
  
 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo sh= roud=20 in place but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. Th= e=20 exhaust manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal= =20 sheild but I made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probab= ly=20 account for the largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli c= ooler=20 is directly below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant he= at=20 transfer. I made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blank= et=20 sewed together like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I dec= ided=20 to also cover with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I = made=20 it into a sleeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get down to t= he=20 muffler which is located inside a housing (more on that in a another= =20 post), due to it's location inside a housing I decided to put a quilt= ed=20 blanket sleeve over that one too.

Pics of all this and more at this link.


Todd Bartrim

C-FSTB
RV9=20 13Bturbo



=


=
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