X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from omr-m008e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.7] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9395873 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 15:11:14 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.29.186.7; envelope-from=ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mba01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mba01.mx.aol.com [172.26.133.111]) by omr-m008e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id ADF5C38002AB for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 15:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-abb06f.mail.aol.com (core-abb06.mail.aol.com [172.27.0.6]) by mtaomg-mba01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 692EB38000084 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 15:10:55 -0500 (EST) Full-name: ARGOLDMAN Message-ID: <16cad7e.38eeda3a.45b7bd4f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 15:10:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_16cad7e.38eeda3a.45b7bd4f_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.8 sub 2019 X-Originating-IP: [23.25.33.118] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1485202256; bh=+IroIiEtn4wqzZhvVpGVoL9UaPRBly/R5jxjd6nlYI0=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=EOpDKsIwIoxDDwlGcNYZSz9OajbuzYfYRBryMlttnWfLPMcCpFTMqY3sT+oizT0qF hLxHTSKj2XESLcQjHWR7JhW4UXJqIRzAdElisapW5w9PwX3CQNtxcFeMsp2GVh62e9 gJtKomXRD9uTh91i5vDYgOb9AhE9zADJeQxeq3Ec= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1a856f5886634f2551 --part1_16cad7e.38eeda3a.45b7bd4f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the areas= of=20 slip joints or ball joints. =20 Also with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a hotter = =20 exhaust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a coole= r =20 blast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being cooled by movi= ng=20 air leaving the cowling? Rich =20 =20 In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, =20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: Lynn, Et All, =20 I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I have= =20 used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot didn= 't=20 have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhaust =20 temperatures. They have had an 1800=B0F+ material for some time now. They= needed =20 to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures. They= =20 have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the pipes.= There=20 is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The insinuative effec= t=20 is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipes look great too.= I=20 have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that have tight fairings.= I=20 measured a 30=B0 difference inside my fairing with no other changes using= =20 color change tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms of= =20 radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in fron= t of the=20 headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects, and=20 survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work for= those=20 guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I highly recommend them. Bill Jepson=20 On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_= =20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps aroun= d=20 the engine. =20 The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall turn to dust in= =20 one racing season. Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside radiu= s=20 of bent tubes is thinner and will fail sooner.That bright orange header= =20 you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped header look= s=20 like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless? Steel under str= ess=20 fails sooner. Each down pipe should be free to twist and squirm a bit as= =20 it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only thick wall stainle= ss=20 at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting exhaust gasses will be= =20 close the EGT readings on the gage. Will your car muffler hold up to 1600= =20 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those pipes will the bright or= ange=20 pipe damage anything important?=20 =20 Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same =20 length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attache= s =20 with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case a spring fai= ls.=20 Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case the spring= =20 fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a piece of= spring=20 will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpful. The=20 collector is supported loosely by a bracket that moves with the engine.= =20 =20 Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine =20 moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so-= on =20 may be mounted to the chassis.=20 Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.=20 =20 The whole system may may be covered with .015" stainless shielding space= d=20 one inch at least off of the tubes. Air blowing between the shielding an= d=20 the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing temperatures under= =20 hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher temps.=20 =20 Been there. Done that. =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 =20 In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 _flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) writes= : =20 My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between=20 difficult and impossible. I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025=20 stainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, and ducting airf= low =20 through it. Sort of a muffler over the muffler. It'd be heavy, but the= shroud=20 could have been lined on the inside with blanket material for more heat= =20 isolation. =20 =20 On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim=20 <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wro= te: =20 =20 So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that=20 some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures don= 't=20 like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant heat= =20 under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to= keep=20 most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating on= the=20 inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no longer new= =20 it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On my first= ever=20 engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was supposed to reduc= e=20 oil heating, but after I had a little detonation incident I found during= =20 the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to the shock of=20 detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coating the outside of= the pipe=20 is any better than wrapping them as the heat is still absorbed by the=20 metal but unable to radiate out. But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once it's=20 done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redone= again.=20 A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my exhaust=20 completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change again... Bu= t then=20 somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband sensor wa= s,=20 blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundred bucks and havi= ng=20 to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the sensor be located at= =20 an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo, while my ol= d=20 narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than leaving the ol= d=20 sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with another (long ago)=20 incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then install a new= O2 bung=20 downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and re-wrap. So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly. =20 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in place= =20 but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust=20 manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but= I made=20 one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for the lar= gest=20 source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly below that= ,=20 I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I made this=20 cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed together like a= quilt.=20 The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover with a blanket= =20 like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve that slides= =20 over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is located insid= e a=20 housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's location inside a= =20 housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over that one too. Pics of all this and more at this link. _https://goo.gl/photos/https://goo.gl/ph_=20 (https://goo.gl/photos/NvD5YH4jwbktESi88)=20 =20 Todd Bartrim C-FSTB RV9 13Bturbo --part1_16cad7e.38eeda3a.45b7bd4f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am interested in ceramic coatings also. A question arises in the ar= eas of=20 slip joints or ball joints.
 
Also with pushers (perish the thought) what will the effect of a hott= er=20 exhaust blowing on the propeller in a more concentrated fashion vs a coole= r=20 blast modified by the radiation of the exhaust system being cooled by movi= ng air=20 leaving the cowling?
Rich
 
In a message dated 1/20/2017 1:14:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Lynn, Et All,=20
I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings.= I have=20 used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot di= dn't=20 have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhaust=20 temperatures. They have had an 1800=B0F+ material for some time now. The= y needed=20 to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures. They= have=20 a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the pipes. There= is a=20 very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The insinuative effect is= as=20 good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipes look great too. I hav= e used=20 them for pipes on racing motorcycles that have tight fairings. I measure= d a=20 30=B0 difference inside my fairing with no other changes using color cha= nge=20 tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms of radiated heat= . I=20 had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in front of the headers= . This=20 no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects, and survived a 4 hou= r=20 endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work for those guys, and= wasn't=20 sponsored by them either. I highly recommend them.
Bill Jepson 

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in tem= ps=20 around the engine.
 
The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall tu= rn to=20 dust in one racing season.
Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outsi= de=20 radius of bent tubes is thinner and will  fail sooner.That bright= =20 orange header you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat= taped=20 header looks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless?&= nbsp;=20  Steel under stress fails sooner.  Each down pipe should be= free=20 to twist and squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down= tubes=20 and only thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the= =20 exiting exhaust gasses will be close the EGT readings on the gage= . Will=20 your car muffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off= along=20 those pipes will the bright orange pipe damage anything important?
 
Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the= same=20 length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector att= aches=20 with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case= a=20 spring fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in= case=20 the spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know an= d a=20 piece of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least= =20 helpful. The collector is supported  loosely by a bracket th= at=20 moves with the engine.
 
Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the= engine=20 moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and= so-on=20 may be mounted to the chassis.
Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.
 
The whole system may  may be covered with .015" stainless=20 shielding spaced one inch at least off of the tubes.  Air blowing= =20 between the shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of= =20 reducing temperatures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from=20 radiating higher temps.
 
Been there. Done that.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,= flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
My= problem=20 with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between difficul= t and=20 impossible.  I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 stainle= ss=20 shroud that went all the way to the air exit,  and ducting airf= low=20 through it.  Sort of a muffler over the muffler.  It'd be= heavy,=20 but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket mate= rial=20 for more heat isolation.




On Friday, January 20, 20= 17 1:48 AM,=20 Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:


So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I kn= ow=20 that some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufa= ctures=20 don't like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of= radiant=20 heat under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want= to try=20 to keep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic= =20 coating on the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a= pipe is=20 no longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to= stay.=20 On my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that= was=20 supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little detonation= =20 incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic had com= e off=20 due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that cerami= c=20 coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping them as= the=20 heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out.
   But the biggest argument against ceramic coating= is that=20 once it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without ha= ving=20 it redone again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already= had=20 my exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting that it would ch= ange=20 again... But then somebody on this list started saying how great his= PLX=20 wideband sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple= of=20 hundred bucks and having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended= that=20 the sensor be located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downst= ream=20 from a turbo, while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstrea= m. So=20 rather than leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off= along=20 with another (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch= over=20 it, then install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap,= weld=20 and re-wrap.
So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly.
  
 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo= shroud=20 in place but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that.= The=20 exhaust manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal= =20 sheild but I made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items proba= bly=20 account for the largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli= cooler=20 is directly below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant= heat=20 transfer. I made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blan= ket=20 sewed together like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I de= cided=20 to also cover with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so= I made=20 it into a sleeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get down to= the=20 muffler which is located inside a housing (more on that in a another= =20 post), due to it's location inside a housing I decided to put a quil= ted=20 blanket sleeve over that one too.

Pics of all this and more at this link.

Todd Bartrim

C-FSTB
RV9=20 13Bturbo



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