X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Todd Bartrim" Received: from mail-qt0-f173.google.com ([209.85.216.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9389795 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 01:52:49 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.216.173; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-qt0-f173.google.com with SMTP id l7so65165996qtd.1 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 22:52:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=acxrskWWFK6yxkT4bkjeKdpHE0Mn6BMyPKwgDd8WUvE=; b=g/t/VWJLq/tVQ9r20w2tGz1ElF0M94NVzffyRzo+9rDU3Ocb5JEL35pdDgu3CGcRsl UwkIsg/OChiVpTpue2J6TaEKNqhzd8hwUro+dRQadvQh2ckEUsfv5iQNEvhmVNJl2fON MphrAViKsw3I8oLPYycd9d3UgN/CxLLqZ4Sa9ymwEvC8FPiol0dcPybT9GKwUYmy2iGr yzN9iZkMmLhfW1gzTcL/C1P2IkGbH7CrX+6uj9L/iMjPDuJAfqXI8ndzGmwWBJHQ+n2i oOtC2zQZXePcquUUMW1Cu1FX2QFsvm3dAnwz8Jacp0mBlBLh84n9MKUWEXWLlQKBk+3/ xJXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=acxrskWWFK6yxkT4bkjeKdpHE0Mn6BMyPKwgDd8WUvE=; b=ZrWcCB1nC8Tg2JQDB9XgzS2JXsiSt7/DNwy9+5rOlJymCPhxYqRXKW1EmbvyEY79XT ETQYv/cqqIKxfmcEKxl9vnka48ETikZFN/QVqJO4eKxMyByB5Ticl1ziq9zTeR2FaD+z 3qP/Gkpb7fggWenWmZNYBUCq3pYCmYhUkk/kDNqzw6FsiOPWvxbkbiyJR1rB6arOsZ90 5pMIFInWpvOoPdwsujSqKeLd42BqQcEiAIY+jVc+RykRUjcjhz0Q38sUQTCDr+LeiTzf /P4c4l4dsPKz/u/VgJkhFOSiATkmXRRMehooSeaV95/tCGNn48W6jWXQ7iLAPfjvzr5G 9eQg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKqQMhhk4zveU7wD9Y64wIbOLdt1S4ZwtU3TkrCu3ZMKR9AsM9cPldO/bCcgSVjtqqbQcTY6g9QrixdMQ== X-Received: by 10.200.37.85 with SMTP id 21mr16070587qtn.238.1484981551750; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 22:52:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 06:52:21 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142b398e3e13705469535bf --001a1142b398e3e13705469535bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well that's pretty much what I figured about the wraps. However at this point I'll leave them on until I at least do all of my ground tests to determine if I'll have to modify my exhaust system then if all is good with them, with no further mods required I'll send them away for coating. I should add that I used 321ss for my exhaust pipes and used 317ss rod for TIG welds. So I don't expect any corrosion issues under the wraps. I actually welded on a spare O2 bung that I had onto my pipe for the new wide-band sensor and after I finished I suddenly realized that it probably wasn't stainless, checked it with a magnet, then cut it off. Amazon's aviation department delivered a SS one today. One of the reasons I'm putting in this effort to reduce cowl heat is that I have made exit ducts from 3 of my 4 coolers (intercooler, oil cooler, and one of the coolant rads) so while that should improve things there it will also significantly reduce cooling airflow over the exhaust system. However the one coolant rad that I was unable to duct was due to its proximity to the turbo so it will still be blowing over it. So maybe not so bad. Good to hear that you're making use of your welder Dave. Is that machine working out well for you? On Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 6:23 PM David Leonard wrote: Todd, I have used both wraps and ceramic coating. I will not use wraps anymore because of the reasons Lynn mentioned. The coating sometimes flake off, but most of it is there years later. if you need to modify, then it leaves a small uncoated area but that is no big deal. The stock heat shields over the turbo hold up OK except for the attachment area.. My very poor TIG skills were good enough to fix that. I use heat shields over any hoses, wires or engine mount that are seeing the radiant heat. Otherwise, the air flow that has passed through the oil, water, and intercoolers is still plenty cool to keep temps under the cowl in a tolerable range. BTW, even the best wraps only last a couple hundred hours before they start falling apart and make a perpetual mess. Corrosion underneath them is evident in short order. Dave Leonard On 1/20/17, William Jepson wrote: > David, > I really like the coating rather than the heat wraps. The wraps do work, > but as Lynn said the pipes frequently corrode inside them. They seem to > grab the moisture on cool down or just let the inside oxidize due to the > contained high temperature. I have used both and the Jet-Hot seemed to work > just as well without the oxidation problem. One other thing is the wraps > add significant size to the pipes which can be a problem when routing too= . > Bill Jepson > > On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 2:44 PM, hoursaway1 > wrote: > >> Bill, that is the sys on our 13B RV6A Rotary now, inside/outside >> coatings, >> down to the Y pipe, so far, so good. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From: *"William Jepson" >> *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" >> *Sent: *Friday, January 20, 2017 2:13:41 PM >> *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets >> >> Lynn, EtAll, >> I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I hav= e >> used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot >> didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary >> exhaust >> temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some time now. = They >> needed to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header >> temperatures. >> They have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the >> pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The >> insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the >> pipes >> look great too. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that >> have >> tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with = no >> other >> changes using color change tape, but I think is was even better than tha= t >> in terms of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounte= d >> low in front of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and >> melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss >> system. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either= . >> I >> highly recommend them. >> Bill Jepson >> >> On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover >> wrote: >> >>> The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps >>> around the engine. >>> >>> The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall turn to dust >>> in >>> one racing season. >>> Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside >>> radius of bent tubes is thinner and will fail sooner.That bright orang= e >>> header you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped >>> header >>> looks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless? Steel >>> under stress fails sooner. Each down pipe should be free to twist and >>> squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only >>> thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting >>> exhaust gasses will be close the EGT readings on the gage. Will your ca= r >>> muffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along thos= e >>> pipes will the bright orange pipe damage anything important? >>> >>> Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same >>> length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector >>> attaches >>> with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case a spring >>> fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case th= e >>> spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a >>> piece >>> of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpful= . >>> The collector is supported loosely by a bracket that moves with the >>> engine. >>> >>> Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine >>> moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and >>> so-on may be mounted to the chassis. >>> Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good. >>> >>> The whole system may may be covered with .015" stainless shielding >>> spaced one inch at least off of the tubes. Air blowing between the >>> shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing >>> temperatures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating >>> higher >>> temps. >>> >>> Been there. Done that. >>> >>> Lynn E. Hanover >>> >>> In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >>> >>> My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between >>> difficult and impossible. I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 >>> stainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, and ducting >>> airflow through it. Sort of a muffler over the muffler. It'd be heavy= , >>> but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket materia= l >>> for more heat isolation. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>> So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that >>> some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures >>> don't >>> like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant >>> heat >>> under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to >>> keep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic >>> coating >>> on the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no >>> longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. >>> On >>> my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was >>> supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little detonation >>> incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come >>> off >>> due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic >>> coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping them as the >>> heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out. >>> But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once it's >>> done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redon= e >>> again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my >>> exhaust >>> completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change again... >>> But >>> then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband >>> sensor >>> was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundred bucks >>> and >>> having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the sensor be >>> located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo= , >>> while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than >>> leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with >>> another >>> (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then >>> install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and >>> re-wrap. >>> So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly. >>> >>> Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in plac= e >>> but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust >>> manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but >>> I >>> made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for >>> the >>> largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly >>> below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I >>> made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed >>> together >>> like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cove= r >>> with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a >>> sleeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler >>> which >>> is located inside a housing (more on that in a another post), due to >>> it's >>> location inside a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve ove= r >>> that one too. >>> >>> Pics of all this and more at this link. >>> >>> https://goo.gl/photos/NvD5YH4jwbktESi88 >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> >>> C-FSTB >>> RV9 13Bturbo >>> >>> >>> >> >> > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --001a1142b398e3e13705469535bf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well that's pretty much what I fig= ured about the wraps. However at this point I'll leave them on until I = at least do all of my ground tests to determine if I'll have to modify = my exhaust system then if all is good with them, with no further mods requi= red I'll send them away for coating.
=C2=A0 I should add that I used 321ss for my exhaust pipes and used 317ss r= od for TIG welds. So I don't expect any corrosion issues under the wrap= s. I actually welded on a spare O2 bung that I had onto my pipe for the new= wide-band sensor and after I finished I suddenly realized that it probably= wasn't stainless, checked it with a magnet, then cut it off. Amazon= 9;s aviation department delivered=C2=A0 a SS one today.
=C2=A0 One of the reasons I'm putting in this effort to reduce cowl hea= t is that I have made exit ducts from 3 of my 4 coolers (intercooler, oil c= ooler, and one of the coolant rads) so while that should improve things the= re it will also significantly reduce cooling airflow over the exhaust syste= m. However the one coolant rad that I was unable to duct was due to its pro= ximity to the turbo so it will still be blowing over it. So maybe not so ba= d.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Good to hear that you're making use of your welder Dave. I= s that machine working out well for you?
=C2=A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 6:23 PM David Leonard &= lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Todd,

I have used both wraps and ceramic coating.=C2=A0 I will not use wraps
anymore because of the reasons Lynn mentioned.=C2=A0 The coating sometimes<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> flake off, but most of it is there years later.=C2=A0 if you need to
modify, then it leaves a small uncoated area but that is no big deal.
The stock heat shields over the turbo hold up OK except for the
attachment area..=C2=A0 My very poor TIG skills were good enough to fix
that.

I use heat shields over any hoses, wires or engine mount that are
seeing the radiant heat.

Otherwise, the air flow that has passed through the oil, water, and
intercoolers is still plenty cool to keep temps under the cowl in a
tolerable range.

BTW, even the best wraps only last a couple hundred hours before they
start falling apart and make a perpetual mess.=C2=A0 Corrosion underneath them is evident in short order.

Dave Leonard

On 1/20/17, William Jepson <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ; wrote:
> David,
> I really like the coating rather than the heat wraps. The wraps do wor= k,
> but as Lynn said the pipes frequently corrode inside them. They seem t= o
> grab the moisture on cool down or just let the inside oxidize due to t= he
> contained high temperature. I have used both and the Jet-Hot seemed to= work
> just as well without the oxidation problem. One other thing is the wra= ps
> add significant size to the pipes which can be a problem when routing = too.
> Bill Jepson
>
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 2:44 PM, hoursaway1 <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Bill, that is the sys on our 13B RV6A Rotary now, inside/outside >> coatings,
>> down to the Y pipe, so far, so good.=C2=A0 David R. Cook=C2=A0 RV6= A Rotary
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From: *"William Jepson" <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>
>> *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net>
>> *Sent: *Friday, January 20, 2017 2:13:41 PM
>> *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets
>>
>> Lynn, EtAll,
>> I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings.= I have
>> used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-= Hot
>> didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to r= otary
>> exhaust
>> temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some time= now. They
>> needed to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header
>> temperatures.
>> They have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of = the
>> pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. T= he
>> insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and = the
>> pipes
>> look great too. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles t= hat
>> have
>> tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing= with no
>> other
>> changes using color change tape, but I think is was even better th= an that
>> in terms of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing = mounted
>> low in front of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling a= nd
>> melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total l= oss
>> system. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't sponsored = by them either.
>> I
>> highly recommend them.
>> Bill Jepson
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in = temps
>>> around the engine.
>>>
>>> The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall= turn to dust
>>> in
>>> one racing season.
>>> Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The ou= tside
>>> radius of bent tubes is thinner and will=C2=A0 fail sooner.Tha= t bright orange
>>> header you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat= taped
>>> header
>>> looks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless?= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Steel
>>> under stress fails sooner.=C2=A0 Each down pipe should be free= to twist and
>>> squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes = and only
>>> thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the = exiting
>>> exhaust gasses will be close the EGT readings on the gage. Wil= l your car
>>> muffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off a= long those
>>> pipes will the bright orange pipe damage anything important? >>>
>>> Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly t= he same
>>> length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Colle= ctor
>>> attaches
>>> with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case a= spring
>>> fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely i= n case the
>>> spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you kno= w and a
>>> piece
>>> of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the leas= t helpful.
>>> The collector is supported=C2=A0 loosely by a bracket that mov= es with the
>>> engine.
>>>
>>> Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for th= e engine
>>> moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, muff= lers and
>>> so-on may be mounted to the chassis.
>>> Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.
>>>
>>> The whole system may=C2=A0 may be covered with .015" stai= nless shielding
>>> spaced one inch at least off of the tubes.=C2=A0 Air blowing b= etween the
>>> shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of red= ucing
>>> temperatures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from rad= iating
>>> higher
>>> temps.
>>>
>>> Been there. Done that.
>>>
>>> Lynn E. Hanover
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Tim= e,
>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
>>>
>>> My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere= between
>>> difficult and impossible.=C2=A0 I opted for wrapping the muffl= er in a .025
>>> stainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit,=C2=A0 = and ducting
>>> airflow through it.=C2=A0 Sort of a muffler over the muffler.= =C2=A0 It'd be heavy,
>>> but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanke= t material
>>> for more heat isolation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim <
>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps?= I know that
>>> some people like them and others don't. Also some header m= anufactures
>>> don't
>>> like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of r= adiant
>>> heat
>>> under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want = to try to
>>> keep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know cera= mic
>>> coating
>>> on the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pip= e is no
>>> longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it = to stay.
>>> On
>>> my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as t= hat was
>>> supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little deton= ation
>>> incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic h= ad come
>>> off
>>> due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel t= hat ceramic
>>> coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping th= em as the
>>> heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out.=
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But the biggest argument against ceramic coating = is that once it's
>>> done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without ha= ving it redone
>>> again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already= had my
>>> exhaust
>>> completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change = again...
>>> But
>>> then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wi= deband
>>> sensor
>>> was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hu= ndred bucks
>>> and
>>> having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that th= e sensor be
>>> located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstrea= m from a turbo,
>>> while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. = So rather than
>>> leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off along = with
>>> another
>>> (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over i= t, then
>>> install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, wel= d and
>>> re-wrap.
>>> So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo = shroud in place
>>> but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The = exhaust
>>> manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal s= heild but
>>> I
>>> made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably acc= ount for
>>> the
>>> largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is = directly
>>> below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat tr= ansfer. I
>>> made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket se= wed
>>> together
>>> like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to = also cover
>>> with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it= into a
>>> sleeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the = muffler
>>> which
>>> is located inside a housing (more on that in a another post), = due to
>>> it's
>>> location inside a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket s= leeve over
>>> that one too.
>>>
>>> Pics of all this and more at this link.
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/photos/NvD5YH= 4jwbktESi88
>>>
>>> Todd Bartrim
>>>
>>> C-FSTB
>>> RV9 13Bturbo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--
Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
--001a1142b398e3e13705469535bf--