X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "William Jepson" Received: from mail-ua0-f174.google.com ([209.85.217.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9389190 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 18:54:35 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.217.174; envelope-from=wrjjrs@gmail.com Received: by mail-ua0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 96so74489304uaq.3 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:54:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bvlakowMT5ZJxSsBjGG/JTOuYuMZ/KyqK70Kl1PVxNc=; b=Krl7jpYn/f5eBpZ8XaKQN4bI8JZ1JbMQ3FRixB2lVMH+r1morb5CI9aDLZmDfsa64x aoqVou2XtMUDU5f+xVk/VbqEkcngR6TYSsebt+DbWBdxUB5tOZPd+rcgJIV7nEAue4zx j9/frQFJUFedbt0cP/B7Qs/UkkZEUQRJtxKfvDHk2rE9zg0u7TLskV8fepcHu86bAkQm TK4zXLE31/JKprSnT0UxdM5ysX3Oi3QKfAS/JPxTXq05dy7B3qd0in+QBBvL/sr6R3Bc TS2hsDCYl/qVUPNY5HmSqjmwRTWEONjuoU9R/trCdRNEq4wJvkDlA7QhvEIKXesuC17A l2bA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=bvlakowMT5ZJxSsBjGG/JTOuYuMZ/KyqK70Kl1PVxNc=; b=kYQkaPAWjlSHL/PyTjoy/sBLBMJTJygYQM+zjOdLRmRD+ZFtPsepILOXCnHN6LfjMM ojyq09mKKJOq9JD46FhZbTaXy8f7TqYxXLBkR+AK5KLb8GKU9KQMInsq6l2hZEbHlviE oxmYV+AgxCFVDFEinuVD4z2BhZUR/S96KXho5WRtarw0Fh454hIFHmVuNCyAepG9SHP+ DgfWnH0aYEv0qFeD7m2LPCgCu3Kzp1Le/58zYsHS104UzECZqLPa5+9MBJGW2RSTyLDv NTk9ZdCEQQ4WAlvRhWTOdaYD/4zEq/LydQ5KzUVl/3tP5LTWZ0T8ENxEzUxMYrvtM8Vb iObg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJwpo60sw/1BjxyZPgXGtkT9sEhmbafus2fWmanptXLvz2ivOa/EQLeqjCNz7f1cv3XIzotQNTUcEMPSg== X-Received: by 10.176.76.45 with SMTP id l45mr9783646uaf.132.1484956456891; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:54:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.90.26 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:54:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:54:16 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403043615601ebd5f05468f5e5e --f403043615601ebd5f05468f5e5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, I really like the coating rather than the heat wraps. The wraps do work, but as Lynn said the pipes frequently corrode inside them. They seem to grab the moisture on cool down or just let the inside oxidize due to the contained high temperature. I have used both and the Jet-Hot seemed to work just as well without the oxidation problem. One other thing is the wraps add significant size to the pipes which can be a problem when routing too. Bill Jepson On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 2:44 PM, hoursaway1 wrote: > Bill, that is the sys on our 13B RV6A Rotary now, inside/outside coatings= , > down to the Y pipe, so far, so good. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"William Jepson" > *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" > *Sent: *Friday, January 20, 2017 2:13:41 PM > *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets > > Lynn, EtAll, > I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I have > used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot > didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhau= st > temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some time now. T= hey > needed to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures= . > They have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the > pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The > insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pip= es > look great too. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that hav= e > tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with n= o other > changes using color change tape, but I think is was even better than that > in terms of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted > low in front of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and > melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss > system. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either.= I > highly recommend them. > Bill Jepson > > On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover > wrote: > >> The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps >> around the engine. >> >> The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall turn to dust i= n >> one racing season. >> Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside >> radius of bent tubes is thinner and will fail sooner.That bright orange >> header you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped hea= der >> looks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless? Steel >> under stress fails sooner. Each down pipe should be free to twist and >> squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only >> thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting >> exhaust gasses will be close the EGT readings on the gage. Will your car >> muffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those >> pipes will the bright orange pipe damage anything important? >> >> Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same >> length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attac= hes >> with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case a spring >> fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case the >> spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a pi= ece >> of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpful. >> The collector is supported loosely by a bracket that moves with the eng= ine. >> >> Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine >> moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and >> so-on may be mounted to the chassis. >> Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good. >> >> The whole system may may be covered with .015" stainless shielding >> spaced one inch at least off of the tubes. Air blowing between the >> shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing >> temperatures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating hig= her >> temps. >> >> Been there. Done that. >> >> Lynn E. Hanover >> >> In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >> >> My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between >> difficult and impossible. I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 >> stainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, and ducting >> airflow through it. Sort of a muffler over the muffler. It'd be heavy, >> but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket material >> for more heat isolation. >> >> >> >> >> On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> >> So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that >> some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures do= n't >> like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant hea= t >> under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to >> keep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coatin= g >> on the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no >> longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. O= n >> my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was >> supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little detonation >> incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come of= f >> due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic >> coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping them as the >> heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out. >> But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once it's >> done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redone >> again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my exhaus= t >> completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change again... B= ut >> then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband sen= sor >> was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundred bucks an= d >> having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the sensor be >> located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo, >> while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than >> leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with anoth= er >> (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then >> install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and re-w= rap. >> So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly. >> >> Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in place >> but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust >> manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but = I >> made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for t= he >> largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly >> below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I >> made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed togeth= er >> like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover >> with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a >> sleeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler wh= ich >> is located inside a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it'= s >> location inside a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over >> that one too. >> >> Pics of all this and more at this link. >> >> https://goo.gl/photos/NvD5YH4jwbktESi88 >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> C-FSTB >> RV9 13Bturbo >> >> >> > > --f403043615601ebd5f05468f5e5e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
David,
I really like the coating rather than the heat = wraps. The wraps do work, but as Lynn said the pipes frequently corrode ins= ide them. They seem to grab the moisture on cool down or just let the insid= e oxidize due to the contained high temperature. I have used both and the J= et-Hot seemed to work just as well without the oxidation problem. One other= thing is the wraps add significant size to the pipes which can be a proble= m when routing too.
Bill Jepson

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 2:44 PM, hoursa= way1 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Bill, that is the sys on our 13B RV6A Rotary now, in= side/outside coatings, down to the Y pipe, so far, so good.=C2=A0 David R. = Cook=C2=A0 RV6A Rotary

From: "William Jepson" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: &qu= ot;Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent= : Friday, January 20, 2017 2:13:41 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : exhaust wraps and blankets

Lynn, EtAl= l,
I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, cera= mic coatings. I have used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance= . Early Jet-Hot didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand = up to rotary exhaust temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material f= or some time now. They needed to have a coating that would stand up to turb= o header temperatures. They have a service where they apply to the inside a= nd outside of the pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that even h= elp HP. The insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat wraps, a= nd the pipes look great too. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycl= es that have tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fai= ring with no other changes using color change tape, but I think is was even= better than that in terms of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the= fairing mounted low in front of the headers. This no longer was showing bu= bbling and melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total= loss system. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by = them either. I highly recommend them.
Bill Jepson=C2=A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps ar= ound the engine.
=C2=A0
The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall=C2=A0tu= rn to dust in one racing season.
Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside ra= dius of bent tubes is thinner and will =C2=A0fail sooner.That bright orange= header you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped heade= r looks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless?=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Steel under stress fails sooner.=C2=A0 Each down pipe should be free to = twist and squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and= only thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting= exhaust gasses will be close the=C2=A0EGT readings on the gage. Will your = car muffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along thos= e pipes will the bright orange pipe damage anything important?
=C2=A0
Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same = length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attaches= with stiff springs the=C2=A0down pipes. A strap=C2=A0fail safe in case a s= pring fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case = the spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a p= iece of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpfu= l. The collector is supported=C2=A0 loosely=C2=A0by a bracket that moves wi= th the engine.
=C2=A0
Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine= moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so-= on may be mounted to the chassis.
Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.
=C2=A0
The whole system may =C2=A0may be covered with .015" stainless sh= ielding spaced one inch at least off of the tubes.=C2=A0 Air blowing betwee= n the shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing t= emperatures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher = temps.
=C2=A0
Been there. Done that.
=C2=A0
Lynn E. Hanover
=C2=A0
In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net writes:
My problem with the wrap is that it ma= kes inspection somewhere between difficult and impossible.=C2=A0 I opted fo= r wrapping the muffler in a .025 stainless shroud that went all the way to = the air exit, =C2=A0and ducting airflow through it.=C2=A0 Sort of a muffler= over the muffler.=C2=A0 It'd be heavy, but the shroud could have been = lined on the inside with blanket material for more heat isolation.



On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net> wrote:


So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know = that some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactu= res don't like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of = radiant heat under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want = to try to keep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic= coating on the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is= no longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. = On my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was su= pposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little detonation incident = I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to the= shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coating the= outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping them as the heat is still = absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that = once it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without h= aving it redone again. A good example of this just happened as I'd alre= ady had my exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting that it would c= hange again... But then somebody on this list started saying how great his = PLX wideband sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a coupl= e of hundred bucks and having to redo my exhaust because it's recommend= ed that the sensor be located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" = downstream from a turbo, while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" = downstream. So rather than leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut= it off along with another (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld = a patch over it, then install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to un= wrap, weld and re-wrap.
So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly.
=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud i= n place but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhau= st manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but = I made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for th= e largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly be= low that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I made = this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed together like = a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover with a = blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve that = slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is located = inside a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's location= inside a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over that one t= oo.

Pics of all this and more at this link.


Todd Bartrim

C-FSTB
RV9 13Bturbo





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