X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.33] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9389036 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 17:45:04 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.252.207.33; envelope-from=hoursaway1@comcast.net Received: from resomta-ch2-17v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.113]) by resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id UhvIciCndRNZDUhvKcq5sF; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 22:44:46 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1484952286; bh=S80sEjdMxu4/fhSeqjx+O3/3OsIrEriyibBFkCjkGLg=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=kKYlq6uDFGgzFRi/bbrX24Lhxo6zgGVZlvO+q01uLSDHiMiIos+5+zkPed1ZIX+zF DdRasWW6Bu3eY53k1EA40W0ALoodfc+hz7YTkiWfEBT6iyxH72Z4xMJRDcFcroORye VWpBgY9+A0LAxkP+0pC9Vog6aZjxHjgnqt9Z4/6pksIITDq08L2uWZYCsnsQy9d60M jYdc/EVzU5P0BTjzV59LoSyZOV1QcxKCVLWa2X3aI8+oShhD2YL88B6Qf2niHnNulo 38I24TrGKbg1+H+MNHwChxA2c5G8NmgLKfIMBkUEPVKyj2VmmuD9kaBV3FjS8eX5t9 JKetWmnO6FMSg== Received: from resmail-ch2-632v.sys.comcast.net ([162.150.50.156]) by resomta-ch2-17v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id UhvKcNjwZmqJQUhvKcLZ9N; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 22:44:46 +0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 22:44:46 +0000 (UTC) To: "Fly rotary blog, e-mail" Message-ID: <218165115.98584947.1484952285978.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_98584946_342572846.1484952285969" X-Originating-IP: [2603:3015:1003:800:3904:20ab:225b:aa62] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.7_GA_6031 (ZimbraWebClient - IE7 (Win)/8.0.7_GA_6031) Thread-Topic: exhaust wraps and blankets Thread-Index: agXfvX7jpPQxupBA+/+XhGWTH5Kucw== X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJSAANj/KOxsbEhxa7FCOVCloxqmdSPtQU6c6khF3naFwvEJiLJTc5w1HHqBnc9LV1ekCIiRaCJlBdax2nrM4xGYnkRUhpp4aYNUjxC386xTqNnw75h3 oC4aahgLLnm+chZYhg0AaJYSHfDc7Xz9eSBGlMh84+8ndwNABzkUC2u3zPRIrhQyShLgeZF49DZ5gMqhaYHRIs+PTjkLqz5cFZs= ------=_Part_98584946_342572846.1484952285969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, that is the sys on our 13B RV6A Rotary now, inside/outside coatings, = down to the Y pipe, so far, so good.=C2=A0 David R. Cook=C2=A0 RV6A Rotary= =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Jepson" =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 2:13:41 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets=20 Lynn, Et All,=20 I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I have u= sed Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot didn't= have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhaust tempe= ratures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some time now. They nee= ded to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures. The= y have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the pipes. T= here is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The insinuative ef= fect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipes look great to= o. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that have tight fairing= s. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with no other changes= using color change tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms= of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in fr= ont of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects= , and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work= for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I highly recommend th= em.=20 Bill Jepson =C2=A0=20 On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover < flyrotary@lancaironline.net >= wrote:=20 The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps around = the engine.=20 =C2=A0=20 The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall=C2=A0turn to dust= in one racing season.=20 Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside radius = of bent tubes is thinner and will =C2=A0fail sooner.That bright orange head= er you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped header loo= ks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ste= el under stress fails sooner.=C2=A0 Each down pipe should be free to twist = and squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only = thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting exhau= st gasses will be close the=C2=A0EGT readings on the gage. Will your car mu= ffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those pipe= s will the bright orange pipe damage anything important?=20 =C2=A0=20 Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same lengt= h) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attaches with= stiff springs the=C2=A0down pipes. A strap=C2=A0fail safe in case a spring= fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case the s= pring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a piece = of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpful. Th= e collector is supported=C2=A0 loosely=C2=A0by a bracket that moves with th= e engine.=20 =C2=A0=20 Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine movi= ng about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so-on ma= y be mounted to the chassis.=20 Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.=20 =C2=A0=20 The whole system may =C2=A0may be covered with .015" stainless shielding sp= aced one inch at least off of the tubes.=C2=A0 Air blowing between the shie= lding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing temperature= s under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher temps.=20 =C2=A0=20 Been there. Done that.=20 =C2=A0=20 Lynn E. Hanover=20 =C2=A0=20 In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@= lancaironline.net writes:=20
My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between diff= icult and impossible.=C2=A0 I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 stai= nless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, =C2=A0and ducting airfl= ow through it.=C2=A0 Sort of a muffler over the muffler.=C2=A0 It'd be heav= y, but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket material= for more heat isolation.=20 On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim < flyrotary@lancaironline= .net > wrote:=20 So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that some= people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures don't lik= e them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant heat unde= r the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to keep mo= st of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating on the i= nside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no longer new it= becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On my first ever = engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was supposed to reduce = oil heating, but after I had a little detonation incident I found during th= e rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to the shock of detonat= ion. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coating the outside of the pipe = is any better than wrapping them as the heat is still absorbed by the metal= but unable to radiate out.=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once = it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redo= ne again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my exhaus= t completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change again... Bu= t then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband sens= or was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundred bucks an= d having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the sensor be loc= ated at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo, while= my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than leaving = the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with another (long ag= o) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then install a new= O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and re-wrap.=20 So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly.=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in pla= ce but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust ma= nifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but I mad= e one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for the lar= gest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly below t= hat, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I made this = cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed together like a qui= lt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover with a blank= et like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve that slide= s over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is located insid= e a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's location inside a= housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over that one too.=20 Pics of all this and more at this link.=20 https://goo.gl/photos/NvD5YH4jwbktESi88=20 Todd Bartrim=20 C-FSTB=20 RV9 13Bturbo=20
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Bill, that is the sys on our 13B RV6A = Rotary now, inside/outside coatings, down to the Y pipe, so far, so good.&n= bsp; David R. Cook  RV6A Rotary

From: "William Jepson" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 2:13:41 PM
Subject: [FlyRot= ary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets

Lynn, EtAll,
I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I h= ave used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot d= idn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhaust = temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some time now. The= y needed to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures= . They have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the pip= es. There is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The insinuati= ve effect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipes look gre= at too. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that have tight fa= irings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with no other ch= anges using color change tape, but I think is was even better than that in = terms of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted low = in front of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and melting ef= fects, and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss system. I don't= work for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I highly recomme= nd them.
Bill Jepson 

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:
The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps ar= ound the engine.
 
The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall turn to= dust in one racing season.
Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside ra= dius of bent tubes is thinner and will  fail sooner.That bright orange= header you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped heade= r looks like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless?  &nbs= p;Steel under stress fails sooner.  Each down pipe should be free to t= wist and squirm a bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and = only thick wall stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting = exhaust gasses will be close the EGT readings on the gage. Will your c= ar muffler hold up to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those= pipes will the bright orange pipe damage anything important?
 
Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same = length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attaches= with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case a s= pring fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case = the spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a p= iece of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpfu= l. The collector is supported  loosely by a bracket that moves wi= th the engine.
 
Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine= moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so-= on may be mounted to the chassis.
Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.
 
The whole system may  may be covered with .015" stainless shieldi= ng spaced one inch at least off of the tubes.  Air blowing between the= shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing temper= atures under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher temps= .
 
Been there. Done that.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:=
My problem = with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between difficult and i= mpossible.  I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 stainless shrou= d that went all the way to the air exit,  and ducting airflow through = it.  Sort of a muffler over the muffler.  It'd be heavy, but the = shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket material for more h= eat isolation.
=
=


On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= /DIV>

So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that= some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures don'= t like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant heat= under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to ke= ep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating on = the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no longer n= ew it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On my first = ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was supposed to re= duce oil heating, but after I had a little detonation incident I found duri= ng the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to the shock of de= tonation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coating the outside of the = pipe is any better than wrapping them as the heat is still absorbed by the = metal but unable to radiate out.
   But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that = once it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it= redone again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my e= xhaust completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change again.= .. But then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband= sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundred buc= ks and having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the sensor b= e located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo, = while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than lea= ving the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with another (lo= ng ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then install = a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and re-wrap.
So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly.
  
 Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud i= n place but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhau= st manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but = I made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for th= e largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly be= low that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I made = this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed together like = a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover with a = blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve that = slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is located = inside a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's location ins= ide a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over that one too.<= /DIV>

Pics of all this and more at this link.


Todd Bartrim

C-FSTB
RV9 13Bturbo




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