X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "William Jepson" Received: from mail-vk0-f51.google.com ([209.85.213.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9388465 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 14:14:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.51; envelope-from=wrjjrs@gmail.com Received: by mail-vk0-f51.google.com with SMTP id r136so56178154vke.1 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 11:14:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=SCLuGcH5qHPkDzIWJUJuL7rjVdm6Y5ulo5sfKMnMDbo=; b=C9SicIGvB2v2N2JTE2emoxdKs9/YmZQ6A4vJ4PDgvZKRjpibWmiSdeb+o37XMXZpZR Cn0rBSuND6krJlhl4sFOA1zxPMLNueupkBFm7NHRLfhJ2aMEUGf105s0baStAO137EuD AonvMYkbMoFB4mlAuKoIeSlVDaYnbnktn5zQ2jYtjR91skZsgKuQ8qHAiIwW0CWBd6F4 qaa5w4tFB87EgFdvcLLdFgkyORgaO0KezWgCyOgP9QODgf68IPFGVWW1bgRC/wG6vI0Y dKS9mY1WePWbpKkGlS5iDGtUaYYtwFERHopaILwiVVvpv/b8u0xAIICL9/8Seht9206B VF0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=SCLuGcH5qHPkDzIWJUJuL7rjVdm6Y5ulo5sfKMnMDbo=; b=G6tQZKjZhcMECNL6E9+OI7Pc1uSqv5L4qwloME08lTANCpVN8wwrdZMoTlxb8mWQXO ljHt9RDMgZ7Wd7Gftjy3YvkkH/adPs+bgxR/8j1rXXFQklbqDU16UrUaKKXODyho/RGv QUTCz6UczwLlHVRMHAkt9Xl0BFvGlaoMYRnRBRJA2AEuaINkL78HVTl9qDgcIXdSv5OH 1U1Du93oLhmqJge4x6J+P9uf3pizR5SSbkWCM8X7Xt9YbR8oOAsZT9EqqixpeVsLBwZ5 uMB1QFsNJWD3TCoacxCCborY5682oUKYsSn2nCvLw/cJ4RMnY/zQSs8Q+A72ew1lxcoI hkYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKIJBIxTw2UDrMwn7Lqb4OQjIrbeVjVyepumQDhEJlI2HcKflzxI6YxeJ1G/EEELY+bSpCtydwvecxFiw== X-Received: by 10.31.48.75 with SMTP id w72mr7867638vkw.69.1484939622341; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 11:13:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.90.26 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 11:13:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 11:13:41 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: exhaust wraps and blankets To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11430ea6b3e3e305468b7292 --001a11430ea6b3e3e305468b7292 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, Et All, I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coatings. I have used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early Jet-Hot didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rotary exhaust temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some time now. The= y needed to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header temperatures. They have a service where they apply to the inside and outside of the pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. The insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pipes look great too. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that have tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with no = other changes using color change tape, but I think is was even better than that in terms of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing mounted low in front of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling and melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss system. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them either. I highly recommend them. Bill Jepson On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover wrote: > The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps aroun= d > the engine. > > The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall turn to dust in > one racing season. > Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside radiu= s > of bent tubes is thinner and will fail sooner.That bright orange header > you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped header look= s > like. How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless? Steel under > stress fails sooner. Each down pipe should be free to twist and squirm a > bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only thick wall > stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting exhaust gasses > will be close the EGT readings on the gage. Will your car muffler hold up > to 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those pipes will the > bright orange pipe damage anything important? > > Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same > length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attach= es > with stiff springs the down pipes. A strap fail safe in case a spring > fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case the > spring fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a pie= ce > of spring will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpful. > The collector is supported loosely by a bracket that moves with the > engine. > > Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine > moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and > so-on may be mounted to the chassis. > Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good. > > The whole system may may be covered with .015" stainless shielding space= d > one inch at least off of the tubes. Air blowing between the shielding an= d > the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing temperatures under > hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher temps. > > Been there. Done that. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > My problem with the wrap is that it makes inspection somewhere between > difficult and impossible. I opted for wrapping the muffler in a .025 > stainless shroud that went all the way to the air exit, and ducting > airflow through it. Sort of a muffler over the muffler. It'd be heavy, > but the shroud could have been lined on the inside with blanket material > for more heat isolation. > > > > > On Friday, January 20, 2017 1:48 AM, Todd Bartrim < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I know that > some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures don= 't > like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant heat > under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to > keep most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating > on the inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no > longer new it becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On > my first ever engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was > supposed to reduce oil heating, but after I had a little detonation > incident I found during the rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off > due to the shock of detonation. In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic > coating the outside of the pipe is any better than wrapping them as the > heat is still absorbed by the metal but unable to radiate out. > But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is that once it's > done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without having it redone > again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had my exhaust > completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change again... Bu= t > then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband sens= or > was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundred bucks and > having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the sensor be > located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a turbo, > while my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than > leaving the old sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with anothe= r > (long ago) incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then > install a new O2 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and re-wr= ap. > So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly. > > Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud in place > but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhaust > manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but I > made one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for th= e > largest source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly > below that, I want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I > made this cover using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed togethe= r > like a quilt. The ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover > with a blanket like this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a > sleeve that slides over the joint. Finally we get down to the muffler whi= ch > is located inside a housing (more on that in a another post), due to it's > location inside a housing I decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over > that one too. > > Pics of all this and more at this link. > > https://goo.gl/photos/NvD5YH4jwbktESi88 > > Todd Bartrim > > C-FSTB > RV9 13Bturbo > > > --001a11430ea6b3e3e305468b7292 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn, Et All,
I want to mention the alternative to heat wraps, ceramic coati= ngs. I have used Jet-Hot on headers for insulation and performance. Early J= et-Hot didn't have a super high temp coating that would stand up to rot= ary exhaust temperatures. They have had an 1800=C2=B0F+ material for some t= ime now. They needed to have a coating that would stand up to turbo header = temperatures. They have a service where they apply to the inside and outsid= e of the pipes. There is a very minor smoothing effect that even help HP. T= he insinuative effect is as good or better than most heat wraps, and the pi= pes look great too. I have used them for pipes on racing motorcycles that h= ave tight fairings. I measured a 30=C2=B0 difference inside my fairing with= no other changes using color change tape, but I think is was even better t= han that in terms of radiated heat. I had a battery located in the fairing = mounted low in front of the headers. This no longer was showing bubbling an= d melting effects, and survived a 4 hour endurance race as a total loss sys= tem. I don't work for those guys, and wasn't sponsored by them eith= er. I highly recommend them.
Bill Jepson=C2=A0
On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Lehanover <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
The good news is: Heat wrap tape works great. Amazing drop in temps ar= ound=20 the engine.
=C2=A0
The bad news is: Carbon steel headers, even in .140" wall=C2=A0tu= rn to dust=20 in one racing season.
Literally you can crush the header pipes with one hand. The outside ra= dius=20 of bent tubes is thinner and will =C2=A0fail sooner.That bright orange head= er=20 you see in tapes of dyno runs is exactly what your heat taped header looks = like.=20 How strong is bright orange steel? Even stainless?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Steel under= =20 stress fails sooner.=C2=A0 Each down pipe should be free to twist and squir= m a=20 bit as it heats and cools. Only stainless down tubes and only thick wall=20 stainless at that. If you wrap the whole thing the exiting exhaust gasses w= ill=20 be close the=C2=A0EGT readings on the gage. Will your car muffler hold up t= o=20 1600 degrees. If some heat tape falls off along those pipes will the bright= =20 orange pipe damage anything important?
=C2=A0
Then a collector to take the two or three tubes (all exactly the same= =20 length) in and then the beginning of the exhaust system. Collector attaches= with=20 stiff springs the=C2=A0down pipes. A strap=C2=A0fail safe in case a spring= =20 fails. Two strands of safety wire through the spring loosely in case the sp= ring=20 fails (they like to sing along with the engine) you know and a piece of spr= ing=20 will find a place to get stuck that will be the least helpful. The collecto= r is=20 supported=C2=A0 loosely=C2=A0by a bracket that moves with the engine.
=C2=A0
Then a slip joint or flex joint of some kind to account for the engine= =20 moving about with power changes. Then the exhaust system, mufflers and so-o= n may=20 be mounted to the chassis.
Non rigid mountings to keep the noise down would be good.
=C2=A0
The whole system may =C2=A0may be covered with .015" stainless sh= ielding=20 spaced one inch at least off of the tubes.=C2=A0 Air blowing between the=20 shielding and the header/exhaust tubing does a good job of reducing tempera= tures=20 under hood/cowl, and keeps the shielding from radiating higher temps.
=C2=A0
Been there. Done that.
=C2=A0
Lynn E. Hanover
=C2=A0
In a message dated 1/20/2017 9:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 flyrotary@= lancaironline.net writes:
My pr= oblem with the wrap is that it=20 makes inspection somewhere between difficult and impossible.=C2=A0 I opte= d for=20 wrapping the muffler in a .025 stainless shroud that went all the way to = the=20 air exit, =C2=A0and ducting airflow through it.=C2=A0 Sort of a muffler o= ver=20 the muffler.=C2=A0 It'd be heavy, but the shroud could have been line= d on the=20 inside with blanket material for more heat isolation.




On Friday, January 20, 2= 017 1:48 AM, Todd=20 Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


So I'm interested to hear about thoughts on exhaust wraps? I kno= w that=20 some people like them and others don't. Also some header manufactures= don't=20 like them. But the fact is that we have one heck of a lot of radiant heat= =20 under the cowl. Heat shields help some but I really just want to try to k= eep=20 most of the heat going down the exhaust pipe. I know ceramic coating on t= he=20 inside of the pipe is the best solution, but once a pipe is no longer new= it=20 becomes more difficult to apply and hope for it to stay. On my first ever= =20 engine build I had my rotors ceramic coated as that was supposed to reduc= e oil=20 heating, but after I had a little detonation incident I found during the= =20 rebuild that much of the ceramic had come off due to the shock of detonat= ion.=20 In my mind, I don't feel that ceramic coating the outside of the pipe= is any=20 better than wrapping them as the heat is still absorbed by the metal but= =20 unable to radiate out.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0But the biggest argument against ceramic coating is tha= t=20 once it's done, you can't modify your pipe (welding etc.) without= having it=20 redone again. A good example of this just happened as I'd already had= my=20 exhaust completed some months ago, not expecting that it would change aga= in...=20 But then somebody on this list started saying how great his PLX wideband= =20 sensor was, blah, blah, blah, and suddenly I'm out a couple of hundre= d bucks=20 and having to redo my exhaust because it's recommended that the senso= r be=20 located at an 15 degree angle, no less than 36" downstream from a tu= rbo, while=20 my old narrow band sensor was only 14" downstream. So rather than le= aving the=20 old sensor in place I decided to cut it off along with another (long ago)= =20 incorrectly placed EGT port and weld a patch over it, then install a new = O2=20 bung downstream. Pretty simple to unwrap, weld and re-wrap.
So as far as wraps go... lets hear it. Good, bad or ugly.
=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0Next is blankets. I have the original mazda metal turbo shroud= in=20 place but then I bought a large turbo blanket to fit over that. The exhau= st=20 manifold that the turbo bolts to also has a stck Mazda metal sheild but I= made=20 one to fit over that as I feel these 2 items probably account for the lar= gest=20 source of under-cowl heat and since the oli cooler is directly below that= , I=20 want to eliminate that source of radiant heat transfer. I made this cover= =20 using 2 different styles of welding blanket sewed together like a quilt. = The=20 ball joint in my exhaust pipe, I decided to also cover with a blanket lik= e=20 this rather than wrapping it, so I made it into a sleeve that slides over= the=20 joint. Finally we get down to the muffler which is located inside a housi= ng=20 (more on that in a another post), due to it's location inside a housi= ng I=20 decided to put a quilted blanket sleeve over that one too.

Pics of all this and more at this link.


Todd Bartrim

C-FSTB
RV9=20 13Bturbo



--001a11430ea6b3e3e305468b7292--