X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Kelly Troyer" Received: from mail-oi0-f53.google.com ([209.85.218.53] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9347920 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 07 Jan 2017 13:43:12 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.53; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 128so455905374oig.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2017 10:43:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8G7bYtau+Gi2Awoha7wWaUG+39kA8Rn2baQB/vCNHLU=; b=BtsH9d95jr66mYGXplNegk+9qEhOOjLSt1xijElyYHWLOz4UbwPhXQEVDRAuIXLGVB tNF+yT87CpiOkJu+NkP1PWrHFA0fB3misBLDfBx4F6aLRYlcwLqqYPd81r8sRfONxTIX MTuhiLPs1uVGfumpRAodlMAO9D8WXXTJBGRgopSBhsWACiFxvkBlKEZvkJ0+OO2rKSUa GeEUBhb7PPvflZuMtcL3ZB/PCFiuw7Gk86/BEheCxXYWuh7e2MhgillvlcpjAhQZxI2p Po+uYSLOV/CI6LvrEfDG605TBvXnWmlZYz/99WpUbQT0wrzKDcZJcAOTwrUuXJJUvlKb 0udQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=8G7bYtau+Gi2Awoha7wWaUG+39kA8Rn2baQB/vCNHLU=; b=qs22pIcENZpZ1Fq1CHknzbgXaTUQ/JoX6ozxkhYi3FPKn34k/PHM5YKzR5ozbRlKky jTxfMwRNARTeWiXV6bUOxLP/IBLM11WiFoRvWkwWZOyrFCKJh5c53sRMYGoP+LuprQY/ T+jr8Q9GZHnI8vi717eivgJBV7AU3r9bemjusqoJDOD4i0xtbL9/Hp4kpmajF2GH4vZO +H3P20joQ7BzO5aZ07l2vlX6WVItbrEknUALATZ7kx7rPFifXHFcFXqtEQz+TM9X7FH+ Vf3x9t1IQfV/sYsfJQVVdYQD54l8Yn6RvtfSDKWeiSQVXkfoK3Uzu8hy2SO/rGXofMfT vytA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJfe3fW8VskFU6zbazC4/M5Lv9a0PWiYTlafOtuKdo/tlm6lerz92P3h02Ul7dXhJ9G67NkMv1asGwmHA== X-Received: by 10.202.54.86 with SMTP id d83mr35019987oia.39.1483814574957; Sat, 07 Jan 2017 10:42:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.54.214 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 10:42:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 12:42:54 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: What I'd do differently... or the same. To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ce1b0a728f00545858073 --001a113ce1b0a728f00545858073 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Todd, Good to have you back online !!.............Keep the chatter going............<:) Kelly Troyer On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 3:20 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote: > I justify it the same way I do most everything. I see a need, so I build > it. > And once you have it, you wonder how you ever managed without it. > However I do admit that I do have the good fortune to work in a large > industrial plant that can be quite wasteful at times. Fortunately we have= a > salvage area where materials can be had for next to free before they go t= o > the scrap yard. I'm undoubtedly the best customer! > So much so that I'll sometimes get a call if something really > interesting shows up. But it's surprising how so few other employees take > advantage of it. > I often hear others ask how the heck I managed to do any number of the > things that I've built when they have the same access to resources that I > do. I've noticed that almost all of them have a much better TV than I do > though. > But the point I'm trying to make is that there is resources all around > that are available. Even go down to the scrap yard. Ironically the larger > pieces that we want are worth less. Steel is worth more per pound if it i= s > what they call 'crop steel' which is less than 4'. > The trap you have to be wary of though is one that I certainly fell int= o > and that you spend more time building things that don't fly! > I'd planned to spend 3 full days working on the plane to hopefully run > it to do a long awaited test on my PM auxiliary alternator (some of you m= ay > remember that) so that I could report on whether I would do that again. B= ut > today didn't work out that way and I expect that I'll be moving alot of > snow tomorrow. > But I hope to give the list something to talk about soon. > > On Fri, Jan 6, 2017, 1:24 PM Charlie England > wrote: > >> Yep. I bought one when I OH'd the Lyc in my RV-4, & it goes back & forth >> between me & my neighbor. The legs basically fold in half, and the boom >> drops to almost vertical (which you need to do anyway when stored; >> otherwise the ram rusts pretty quickly). >> >> I'd love to have Todd's setup, but not all of us can justify one. >> >> >> Charlie >> >> >> On 1/6/2017 2:13 PM, Lehanover wrote: >> >> Harbor Fright has a nice engine crane that breaks down into a small >> footprint. I used mine to put a 550 in a Bonanza. No problem. Loan it ou= t >> to friends or just sell it when you are done. >> Lynn E. Hanover >> >> >> In a message dated 1/6/2017 2:27:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >> >> Can NOT lift a typical car that is=E2=80=A6 >> >> =E2=80=94 James >> >> >> On Jan 6, 2017, at 11:26 AM, James R. Osborn wrote: >> >> I love the crane idea. However, installing an XY crane might be a bit >> pricey. I did a quick search and found this beast. Seems reasonably >> priced and I think would serve the same purpose. Can lift a typical car >> with this thing, but with 1 ton capacity, the FWF package ought to be >> doable for all our experimental installations: >> >> http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/material-handling/ >> hoists-cranes/cranes-gantry/steel-gantry-crane-10-fixed- >> height-2000-lb-capacity-1?infoParam.campaignId=3DT9F&gclid=3DCOavx_ >> WYrtECFQ9EfgodkXsHcw >> >> =E2=80=94 James >> rxcited@gmail.com >> 510-377-4514 <(510)%20377-4514> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 5, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Todd Bartrim >> wrote: >> >> Yeah, this is a good topic because of that damn hindsight thing! >> >> I already listed the one thing about the overhead crane or engine hoist, >> but on another more practical note. I got my airplane in the air in 3 ye= ars >> from knowing nothing about airplanes to choosing a kit, building (not a >> quickbuild), designing and building an alternative engine FWF to first >> flight, then learning to fly. >> It was all great fun at home in my shop where I could work on it ever= y >> spare minute. There was many very late nights where the creativity was >> coming fast and furious and lots of times I'd wake up in the middle of t= he >> night with a great idea and head to the shop. >> Then I was in a hurry to move it to the airport. I hated working on i= t >> out there. I could go on with a long list of reasons why, but it was har= d >> to continue experimenting with it out there and I started regretting doi= ng >> some things that I was otherwise glad that I tried. I tried to deny this= to >> myself and stay excited and positive about it all. >> By the time that I took it home 2 years later, I was not really >> interested in dealing with it. And since we had just bought the land acr= oss >> the road, I had a new shop to build, barns to build, a kid to raise and = a >> thousand other distractions, so that it took till now to get interested >> again. >> Fortunately, my wife only once made mention of selling it, but from m= y >> reaction never mentioned it again, but I can see how so many projects ge= t >> abandoned at this point. >> >> So from that, what would I do differently? Hard to be sure since I >> didn't have the flight experience to make some different choices, but ev= en >> an extra year in the shop going at a little slower pace wouldn't have hu= rt. >> That old saying about if you don't have time to do it right the first ti= me, >> then when are you going to find time to do it the second time, is even >> harder when you are no longer in your well equipped shop while doing it = the >> second time. Now it's not like the workmanship is bad, when I say about >> doing it right, but rather if some of our design choices are constrained= by >> the amount of work involved. Now I would rather do an almost unreasonabl= e >> amount of work in the comfort of my shop than almost anything in the fie= ld. >> I really enjoy building at home, but when it's not at home I just want t= o >> fly it. >> Previously I would cling to questionable half-baked ideas because of >> the time and money that I'd invested in it. That's not to say that >> half-baked ideas are all bad, but now I'll be far more likely to move on >> and try something else regardless of time and money investment if I don'= t >> feel good about something. >> So when you're considering something like relocating a cooler and are >> certain that it would improve performance but don't want to to do the wo= rk >> involved, just do it when you're still in a well equipped and convenient >> work space. >> And all you lucky SOB's that have an airstrip and hangar at home, you >> can disregard this advice. >> I could fill several more posts about more specific items that I'd do >> differently but this was really the big picture and once again it may se= em >> obvious to many but that has been my experience. >> >> Todd Bartrim >> RV9 13Bturbo >> >> Ps. I often get asked about how many hours are involved in building this >> plane. I just laugh and say I don't know or care. It doesn't matter. >> Ernest Christley >> 7:35 AM (7 hours ago) >> >> to Rotary >> George started us on a good topic. Building an airplane is an expensive >> and labor intensive process. I've made many decisions where I didn't >> really like something, but liked the prospect of the time and expense to >> change it even less. Those things don't tend to get as much coverage in >> discussions as what was actually done, even though there is a real lesso= n >> in what the person who just did something wishes they'd done differently= . >> >> This thread could be renamed "What I'd done differently" >> >> Another good one would be "What I'd do again" >> >> >> >> >> >> --001a113ce1b0a728f00545858073 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Todd,
=C2=A0 Good to have you back online !!..........= ...Keep the chatter going............<:)

Kelly = Troyer=C2=A0

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 3:20 AM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancair= online.net> wrote:

I justify it the same way I do most everything. I see a need, so I= build it.
And once you have it, you wonder how you ever managed without it.
=C2=A0 However I do admit that I do have the good fortune to work in a larg= e industrial plant that can be quite wasteful at times. Fortunately we have= a salvage area where materials can be had for next to free before they go = to the scrap yard. I'm undoubtedly the best customer!
=C2=A0 So much so that I'll sometimes get a call if something really in= teresting shows up. But it's surprising how so few other employees take= advantage of it.
I often hear others ask how the heck I managed to do any number of the thin= gs that I've built when they have the same access to resources that I d= o.=C2=A0 I've noticed that almost all of them have a much better TV tha= n I do though.
=C2=A0 But the point I'm trying to make is that there is resources all = around that are available. Even go down to the scrap yard. Ironically the l= arger pieces that we want are worth less. Steel is worth more per pound if = it is what they call 'crop steel' which is less than 4'.
=C2=A0 The trap you have to be wary of though is one that I certainly fell = into and that you spend more time building things that don't fly!
=C2=A0=C2=A0 I'd planned to spend 3 full days working on the plane to h= opefully run it to do a long awaited test on my PM auxiliary alternator (so= me of you may remember that) so that I could report on whether I would do t= hat again. But today didn't work out that way and I expect that I'l= l be moving alot of snow tomorrow.
=C2=A0 But I hope to give the list something to talk about soon.


On Fri, Jan 6, 2017, 1:24 P= M Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Yep. I bought one when I OH'd the Ly= c in my RV-4, & it goes back & forth between me & my neighbor. The legs basically fold in half, and the boom drops to almost vertical (which you need to do anyway when stored; otherwise the ram rusts pretty quickly).

I'd love to have Todd's setup, but not all of us can justify = one.


Charlie


On 1/6/2017 2:13 PM, Lehanover wrote:
Harbor Fright has a = nice engine crane that breaks down into a small footprint. I used mine to put a 550 in a Bonanza. No problem. Loan it out to friends or just sell it when you are done.
Lynn E. Hanover
=C2=A0
In a message dated= 1/6/2017 2:27:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net = writes:
Can NOT lift a typical car that is=E2=80=A6

= =E2=80=94 James

On Jan 6= , 2017, at 11:26 AM, James R. Osborn <rxcited@gmail.com> wrote:

I love the crane idea. =C2=A0 However, installing an XY crane might be a bit pricey.=C2=A0 I did a quick search and found this beast.=C2=A0 Seems reasonably priced and I think would serve the same purpose.=C2=A0 Can lift a typical car with this thing, but with 1 ton capacity, the FWF package ought to be doable for all our experimental installations:

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/material= -handling/hoists-cranes/cranes-gantry/steel-gantry-crane-10-fixed= -height-2000-lb-capacity-1?infoParam.campaignId=3DT9F&gc= lid=3DCOavx_WYrtECFQ9EfgodkXsHcw

=E2=80=94 James
rxcited@gm= ail.com
510-377-4514





On Jan 5, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Yeah, this is a good topic because of that damn hindsight thing!

I already listed the one thing about the overhead crane or engine hoist, but on another more practical note. I got my airplane in the air in 3 years from knowing nothing about airplanes to choosing a kit, building (not a quickbuild), designing and building an alternative engine FWF to first flight, then learning to fly.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0It was all great fun at home in my shop where I could work on it every spare minute. There was many very late nights where the creativity was coming fast and furious and lots of times I'd wake up in the middle of the night with a great idea and head to the shop.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Then I was in a hurry to move it to the airport. I hated working on it out there. I could go on with a long list of reasons why, but it was hard to continue experimenting with it out there and I started regretting doing some things that I was otherwise glad that I tried. I tried to deny this to myself and stay excited and positive about it all.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 By the time that I took it home 2 years later, I was not really interested in dealing with it. And since we had just bought the land across the road, I had a new shop to build, barns to build, a kid to raise and a thousand other distractions, so that it took till now to get interested again.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Fortunately, my wife only once made mention of selling it, but from my reaction never mentioned it again, but I can see how so many projects get abandoned at this point.
=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0So from that, what would I do differently? Hard to be sure since I didn't have the flight experience t= o make some different choices, but even an extra year in the shop going at a little slower pace wouldn't have hurt. That old saying about if you don't have time to do it right the first time, then when are you going to find time to do it the second time, is even harder when you are no longer in your well equipped shop while doing it the second time. Now it's not like the workmanship i= s bad, when I say about doing it right, but rather if some of our design choices are constrained by the amount of work involved. Now I would rather do an almost unreasonable amount of work in the comfort of my shop than almost anything in the field. I really enjoy building at home, but when it's not at home I just want to fly it.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Previously I would cling to questionable half-baked ideas because of the time and money that I'd invested in it. That's not = to say that half-baked ideas are all bad, but now I'll be far more likel= y to move on and try something else regardless of time and money investment if I don't feel good about something.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0So when you're considering something like relocating a cooler and are certain that it would improve performance but don't want to to do the work involved, just do it when you're still in a well equipped and convenient work space.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0And all you lucky SOB's that have an airstrip and hangar at home, you can disregard this advice.
I could fill several more posts about more specific items that I'd do differently but this was really the big picture and once again it may seem obvious to many but that has been my experience.

Todd Bartrim
RV9 13Bturbo

Ps. I often get asked about how many hours are involved in building this plane. I just laugh and say I don't know or care. It doesn't matter.

Ernest Christley<= /h3>

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<= img class=3D"m_-5736611458479082305m_8587762242280475130gmail-f m_-57366114= 58479082305m_8587762242280475130gmail-T-KT-JX m_-5736611458479082305gmail_m= sg" alt=3D"" src=3D"https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif"><= /span>
3D""
3D""
to=C2=A0Rotary
3D""
George s= tarted us on a good topic.=C2=A0 Building = an airplane is an expensive and labor intensive process.=C2=A0 I've mad= e many decisions where I didn'= t really like something, but liked the prospect of the time and expense to change it even less.=C2= =A0 Those things don't tend to get as much coverage in discussions as what was actually done, even though there is a real lesson in what the person who just did something wishes they'd done differently.

This thr= ead could be renamed "What I'd = done differently"

Another = good one would be "What I'd do ag= ain"


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