X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Charlie England" Received: from mail-yw0-f176.google.com ([209.85.161.176] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9345968 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 16:24:15 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.176; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-yw0-f176.google.com with SMTP id l145so16175568ywb.1 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:24:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to; bh=onyuLN/YIqUur4dyN06RX+4J1YdbJvQpQd3l2Y3qyiU=; b=qlUlRytf+DK7ujuaayDL9YndupRD4hbo8rrvm3b2KdmaQZsdtwHYVwJXRtvPmZPYg/ i3AUrUJlPSS5q7h+h4JdO6WYmfZDbW4zfijYIa+HYAs0B+N62IhFwv4jST+AAWi3jGsU aM1eNS3AaK9mpmBG1AwlFk2+yaxpNZ50b8Cyxm03vb1qBpfu9Rge2/AmhvCVx5M/KYC7 sfXgupjlxYKdmAw3ZUfn8Ly1/6BAhnllsTT5F7Lvy1oicb/KT97bRHViR6wcI9jeNhUZ KnM8hcJWOWTdH02ZhR07KF4QkJPcl5KdqgMROYi36u/eGMBfZijpJIeB6NHzykpN6EQN 7H8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=onyuLN/YIqUur4dyN06RX+4J1YdbJvQpQd3l2Y3qyiU=; b=NMujZSPeEzI1sdcoS9IYnFkEh+gKaHr6N/jPtJeETUIa8UrnXFCb5yn6FdG7q+AJHM DQgiT7ULd2PBEMmQ51PgImMNqts5j4kWpePXy8vkPpci45kh25IVKajErdScjvG9dkrk NAVz1bWwJAKRT3UbHHJZaLF0IWrt9+02iAvArB4t/BpZA7ngjfM1GZKEurMXUwjJhVuo HmBTzaX8jelErJ3r+P1pccP0o5hdDkoEn4taFoP3n05Rd5kQewZE3BbfJBsJwgAw7ETJ +XKGRzbjbVo2/nwOrlDuDJ7FfVrEBdfJzJkvrAeBnHGitObRAmri3lXAwok1ro63PDx+ ztxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJaVPtB4Ifm6aJX11QkkREiw81DhpQ2SAG7nVVTYawF0vEcd8jyTp5V3KNCoxohng== X-Received: by 10.129.97.134 with SMTP id v128mr73187116ywb.338.1483737836597; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:23:56 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:2602:306:25fa:c489:8dbb:a59a:6ff7:cf02? ([2602:306:25fa:c489:8dbb:a59a:6ff7:cf02]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w17sm33786724ywd.46.2017.01.06.13.23.55 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:23:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: What I'd do differently... or the same. To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 15:25:01 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------00F3EED3E2C090E308DE4D19" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------00F3EED3E2C090E308DE4D19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yep. I bought one when I OH'd the Lyc in my RV-4, & it goes back & forth between me & my neighbor. The legs basically fold in half, and the boom drops to almost vertical (which you need to do anyway when stored; otherwise the ram rusts pretty quickly). I'd love to have Todd's setup, but not all of us can justify one. Charlie On 1/6/2017 2:13 PM, Lehanover wrote: > Harbor Fright has a nice engine crane that breaks down into a small > footprint. I used mine to put a 550 in a Bonanza. No problem. Loan it > out to friends or just sell it when you are done. > Lynn E. Hanover > In a message dated 1/6/2017 2:27:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > Can NOT lift a typical car that is… > > — James > > >> On Jan 6, 2017, at 11:26 AM, James R. Osborn > > wrote: >> >> I love the crane idea. However, installing an XY crane might be a >> bit pricey. I did a quick search and found this beast. Seems >> reasonably priced and I think would serve the same purpose. Can >> lift a typical car with this thing, but with 1 ton capacity, the >> FWF package ought to be doable for all our experimental >> installations: >> >> http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/material-handling/hoists-cranes/cranes-gantry/steel-gantry-crane-10-fixed-height-2000-lb-capacity-1?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=COavx_WYrtECFQ9EfgodkXsHcw >> >> — James >> rxcited@gmail.com >> 510-377-4514 >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 5, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Todd Bartrim >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Yeah, this is a good topic because of that damn hindsight thing! >>> >>> I already listed the one thing about the overhead crane or >>> engine hoist, but on another more practical note. I got my >>> airplane in the air in 3 years from knowing nothing about >>> airplanes to choosing a kit, building (not a quickbuild), >>> designing and building an alternative engine FWF to first >>> flight, then learning to fly. >>> It was all great fun at home in my shop where I could work on >>> it every spare minute. There was many very late nights where the >>> creativity was coming fast and furious and lots of times I'd >>> wake up in the middle of the night with a great idea and head to >>> the shop. >>> Then I was in a hurry to move it to the airport. I hated >>> working on it out there. I could go on with a long list of >>> reasons why, but it was hard to continue experimenting with it >>> out there and I started regretting doing some things that I was >>> otherwise glad that I tried. I tried to deny this to myself and >>> stay excited and positive about it all. >>> By the time that I took it home 2 years later, I was not >>> really interested in dealing with it. And since we had just >>> bought the land across the road, I had a new shop to build, >>> barns to build, a kid to raise and a thousand other >>> distractions, so that it took till now to get interested again. >>> Fortunately, my wife only once made mention of selling it, >>> but from my reaction never mentioned it again, but I can see how >>> so many projects get abandoned at this point. >>> So from that, what would I do differently? Hard to be sure >>> since I didn't have the flight experience to make some different >>> choices, but even an extra year in the shop going at a little >>> slower pace wouldn't have hurt. That old saying about if you >>> don't have time to do it right the first time, then when are you >>> going to find time to do it the second time, is even harder when >>> you are no longer in your well equipped shop while doing it the >>> second time. Now it's not like the workmanship is bad, when I >>> say about doing it right, but rather if some of our design >>> choices are constrained by the amount of work involved. Now I >>> would rather do an almost unreasonable amount of work in the >>> comfort of my shop than almost anything in the field. I really >>> enjoy building at home, but when it's not at home I just want to >>> fly it. >>> Previously I would cling to questionable half-baked ideas >>> because of the time and money that I'd invested in it. That's >>> not to say that half-baked ideas are all bad, but now I'll be >>> far more likely to move on and try something else regardless of >>> time and money investment if I don't feel good about something. >>> So when you're considering something like relocating a cooler >>> and are certain that it would improve performance but don't want >>> to to do the work involved, just do it when you're still in a >>> well equipped and convenient work space. >>> And all you lucky SOB's that have an airstrip and hangar at >>> home, you can disregard this advice. >>> I could fill several more posts about more specific items that >>> I'd do differently but this was really the big picture and once >>> again it may seem obvious to many but that has been my experience. >>> >>> Todd Bartrim >>> RV9 13Bturbo >>> >>> Ps. I often get asked about how many hours are involved in >>> building this plane. I just laugh and say I don't know or care. >>> It doesn't matter. >>> >>> >>> Ernest Christley >>> >>> >>> 7:35 AM (7 hours ago) >>> >>> >>> to Rotary >>> >>> George started us on a good topic. Building an airplane is an >>> expensive and labor intensive process. I've made many decisions >>> where I didn't really like something, but liked the prospect of >>> the time and expense to change it even less. Those things don't >>> tend to get as much coverage in discussions as what was actually >>> done, even though there is a real lesson in what the person who >>> just did something wishes they'd done differently. >>> >>> This thread could be renamed "What I'd done differently" >>> >>> Another good one would be "What I'd do again" >> > > = > --------------00F3EED3E2C090E308DE4D19 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Yep. I bought one when I OH'd the Lyc in my RV-4, & it goes back & forth between me & my neighbor. The legs basically fold in half, and the boom drops to almost vertical (which you need to do anyway when stored; otherwise the ram rusts pretty quickly).

I'd love to have Todd's setup, but not all of us can justify one.

Charlie

On 1/6/2017 2:13 PM, Lehanover wrote:
Harbor Fright has a nice engine crane that breaks down into a small footprint. I used mine to put a 550 in a Bonanza. No problem. Loan it out to friends or just sell it when you are done.
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 1/6/2017 2:27:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Can NOT lift a typical car that is…

— James


On Jan 6, 2017, at 11:26 AM, James R. Osborn <rxcited@gmail.com> wrote:

I love the crane idea.   However, installing an XY crane might be a bit pricey.  I did a quick search and found this beast.  Seems reasonably priced and I think would serve the same purpose.  Can lift a typical car with this thing, but with 1 ton capacity, the FWF package ought to be doable for all our experimental installations:


— James
510-377-4514





On Jan 5, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Yeah, this is a good topic because of that damn hindsight thing!

I already listed the one thing about the overhead crane or engine hoist, but on another more practical note. I got my airplane in the air in 3 years from knowing nothing about airplanes to choosing a kit, building (not a quickbuild), designing and building an alternative engine FWF to first flight, then learning to fly.
   It was all great fun at home in my shop where I could work on it every spare minute. There was many very late nights where the creativity was coming fast and furious and lots of times I'd wake up in the middle of the night with a great idea and head to the shop.
   Then I was in a hurry to move it to the airport. I hated working on it out there. I could go on with a long list of reasons why, but it was hard to continue experimenting with it out there and I started regretting doing some things that I was otherwise glad that I tried. I tried to deny this to myself and stay excited and positive about it all.
    By the time that I took it home 2 years later, I was not really interested in dealing with it. And since we had just bought the land across the road, I had a new shop to build, barns to build, a kid to raise and a thousand other distractions, so that it took till now to get interested again. 
   Fortunately, my wife only once made mention of selling it, but from my reaction never mentioned it again, but I can see how so many projects get abandoned at this point.
  
 So from that, what would I do differently? Hard to be sure since I didn't have the flight experience to make some different choices, but even an extra year in the shop going at a little slower pace wouldn't have hurt. That old saying about if you don't have time to do it right the first time, then when are you going to find time to do it the second time, is even harder when you are no longer in your well equipped shop while doing it the second time. Now it's not like the workmanship is bad, when I say about doing it right, but rather if some of our design choices are constrained by the amount of work involved. Now I would rather do an almost unreasonable amount of work in the comfort of my shop than almost anything in the field. I really enjoy building at home, but when it's not at home I just want to fly it.
   Previously I would cling to questionable half-baked ideas because of the time and money that I'd invested in it. That's not to say that half-baked ideas are all bad, but now I'll be far more likely to move on and try something else regardless of time and money investment if I don't feel good about something.
   So when you're considering something like relocating a cooler and are certain that it would improve performance but don't want to to do the work involved, just do it when you're still in a well equipped and convenient work space.
   And all you lucky SOB's that have an airstrip and hangar at home, you can disregard this advice.
I could fill several more posts about more specific items that I'd do differently but this was really the big picture and once again it may seem obvious to many but that has been my experience.

Todd Bartrim
RV9 13Bturbo

Ps. I often get asked about how many hours are involved in building this plane. I just laugh and say I don't know or care. It doesn't matter.

Ernest Christley
7:35 AM (7 hours ago)

to Rotary
George started us on a good topic.  Building an airplane is an expensive and labor intensive process.  I've made many decisions where I didn't really like something, but liked the prospect of the time and expense to change it even less.  Those things don't tend to get as much coverage in discussions as what was actually done, even though there is a real lesson in what the person who just did something wishes they'd done differently.

This thread could be renamed "What I'd done differently"

Another good one would be "What I'd do again"


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