X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "James R. Osborn" Received: from mail-pg0-f52.google.com ([74.125.83.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14) with ESMTPS id 9345537 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 14:26:21 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.83.52; envelope-from=rxcited@gmail.com Received: by mail-pg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id 14so9861672pgg.1 for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:26:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=IbOLzMlph0KV0exxKhRhSWGpnJtkdt9kN0825Lke05g=; b=rCpENCr9pauRYVdX2kB0tyd4RdRAxHOVIK91gZ9A5wZaJFOOgl2cxgT0/Nsvy4yjB2 30wbf/5m7BNZmDJ55dwDmqtMS5R/PWWyMFWZQXI7Hx4XsxJtjxGWbYLWVvDpjRAdv0KM Hz57HBfOKH4IWPBX/hRQ1t0edtf8wp/Vye7/VPCxHs2NYCd0XEoRFkVhdFRhxAGdMXRu DVnue8hRzzrKELka2Ie+pexYLGnm5PKnST34W5OOGJG9nbbYhGnkKJQAGHGbHh8j0yuT 27XrhrmqmmVPbrgHY/Mm4R8+y0Na1JbZ7t2cFq0qId6jEdMd2/GCk3WCsqO98zfj3/JJ ApYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=IbOLzMlph0KV0exxKhRhSWGpnJtkdt9kN0825Lke05g=; b=IFWNsnsU0mqSkLhlUZbTKmeOdr6g54iu00T5LABw3jf4V9tYx5JAmAWWd0x9/JErkr lPv5vLiE1KvYNUWC8sLq9pdHUDyj/w5r572nQkb5aWmYk9zRwT6N3psoUfc0SJqR1NxV mhVGfJ9jNRU0gidg+puZMxupdxGxheU8PgiX5tXLP37Kquo8/+NeB7Kauh3vzRtulGIb ID5yusg+pf99NIMhwGciSr21eb8RFzZpb63AniIhnuAcQvtivR/r6NSwHLgWVu0VePju uF+WWvqkIgP5007bo9vKFvwxf5SSLcivrEORM8k6CBHX6gupTl2t92OQShWfy79VuI7K Rp/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJwxWis2OqKxrxWud4NXxCWYVUUN+GBs03pxiYfoee9AmT8PYuSwsz8Kxk44AS9xw== X-Received: by 10.84.237.22 with SMTP id s22mr23624818plk.163.1483730762563; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:26:02 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:2620:83:8001:24::1:120? ([2620:83:8001:24::1:120]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g77sm110040910pfk.50.2017.01.06.11.26.01 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:26:02 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DCFB82F0-E346-4A8F-B8D5-CC788C47240E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] What I'd do differently... or the same. Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:26:01 -0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <1376EF89-A3EF-4912-973B-CD7B631CE134@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) --Apple-Mail=_DCFB82F0-E346-4A8F-B8D5-CC788C47240E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I love the crane idea. However, installing an XY crane might be a bit = pricey. I did a quick search and found this beast. Seems reasonably = priced and I think would serve the same purpose. Can lift a typical car = with this thing, but with 1 ton capacity, the FWF package ought to be = doable for all our experimental installations: = http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/material-handling/hoists-cranes/cranes-g= antry/steel-gantry-crane-10-fixed-height-2000-lb-capacity-1?infoParam.camp= aignId=3DT9F&gclid=3DCOavx_WYrtECFQ9EfgodkXsHcw = =E2=80=94 James rxcited@gmail.com 510-377-4514 > On Jan 5, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Todd Bartrim = wrote: >=20 > Yeah, this is a good topic because of that damn hindsight thing! >=20 > I already listed the one thing about the overhead crane or engine = hoist, but on another more practical note. I got my airplane in the air = in 3 years from knowing nothing about airplanes to choosing a kit, = building (not a quickbuild), designing and building an alternative = engine FWF to first flight, then learning to fly. > It was all great fun at home in my shop where I could work on it = every spare minute. There was many very late nights where the creativity = was coming fast and furious and lots of times I'd wake up in the middle = of the night with a great idea and head to the shop. > Then I was in a hurry to move it to the airport. I hated working on = it out there. I could go on with a long list of reasons why, but it was = hard to continue experimenting with it out there and I started = regretting doing some things that I was otherwise glad that I tried. I = tried to deny this to myself and stay excited and positive about it all. > By the time that I took it home 2 years later, I was not really = interested in dealing with it. And since we had just bought the land = across the road, I had a new shop to build, barns to build, a kid to = raise and a thousand other distractions, so that it took till now to get = interested again.=20 > Fortunately, my wife only once made mention of selling it, but from = my reaction never mentioned it again, but I can see how so many projects = get abandoned at this point. > =20 > So from that, what would I do differently? Hard to be sure since I = didn't have the flight experience to make some different choices, but = even an extra year in the shop going at a little slower pace wouldn't = have hurt. That old saying about if you don't have time to do it right = the first time, then when are you going to find time to do it the second = time, is even harder when you are no longer in your well equipped shop = while doing it the second time. Now it's not like the workmanship is = bad, when I say about doing it right, but rather if some of our design = choices are constrained by the amount of work involved. Now I would = rather do an almost unreasonable amount of work in the comfort of my = shop than almost anything in the field. I really enjoy building at home, = but when it's not at home I just want to fly it. > Previously I would cling to questionable half-baked ideas because = of the time and money that I'd invested in it. That's not to say that = half-baked ideas are all bad, but now I'll be far more likely to move on = and try something else regardless of time and money investment if I = don't feel good about something. > So when you're considering something like relocating a cooler and = are certain that it would improve performance but don't want to to do = the work involved, just do it when you're still in a well equipped and = convenient work space. > And all you lucky SOB's that have an airstrip and hangar at home, = you can disregard this advice. > I could fill several more posts about more specific items that I'd do = differently but this was really the big picture and once again it may = seem obvious to many but that has been my experience. >=20 > Todd Bartrim > RV9 13Bturbo >=20 > Ps. I often get asked about how many hours are involved in building = this plane. I just laugh and say I don't know or care. It doesn't = matter. > Ernest Christley >=20 > 7:35 AM (7 hours ago) >=20 >=20 >=20 > to Rotary >=20 > George started us on a good topic. Building an airplane is an = expensive and labor intensive process. I've made many decisions where I = didn't really like something, but liked the prospect of the time and = expense to change it even less. Those things don't tend to get as much = coverage in discussions as what was actually done, even though there is = a real lesson in what the person who just did something wishes they'd = done differently. >=20 > This thread could be renamed "What I'd done differently" >=20 > Another good one would be "What I'd do again" --Apple-Mail=_DCFB82F0-E346-4A8F-B8D5-CC788C47240E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I love the crane idea.   However, installing an XY crane = might be a bit pricey.  I did a quick search and found this beast. =  Seems reasonably priced and I think would serve the same purpose. =  Can lift a typical car with this thing, but with 1 ton capacity, = the FWF package ought to be doable for all our experimental = installations:

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/material-handling/hoists-cran= es/cranes-gantry/steel-gantry-crane-10-fixed-height-2000-lb-capacity-1?inf= oParam.campaignId=3DT9F&gclid=3DCOavx_WYrtECFQ9EfgodkXsHcw

=E2=80=94= James
rxcited@gmail.com
510-377-4514





On Jan 5, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Yeah, this is a good topic because of that = damn hindsight thing!

I already listed the one thing about the overhead crane or = engine hoist, but on another more practical note. I got my airplane in = the air in 3 years from knowing nothing about airplanes to choosing a = kit, building (not a quickbuild), designing and building an alternative = engine FWF to first flight, then learning to fly.
   It was all great fun at home in my shop where I = could work on it every spare minute. There was many very late nights = where the creativity was coming fast and furious and lots of times I'd = wake up in the middle of the night with a great idea and head to the = shop.
   Then I was in a hurry to move it = to the airport. I hated working on it out there. I could go on with a = long list of reasons why, but it was hard to continue experimenting with = it out there and I started regretting doing some things that I was = otherwise glad that I tried. I tried to deny this to myself and stay = excited and positive about it all.
    By = the time that I took it home 2 years later, I was not really interested = in dealing with it. And since we had just bought the land across the = road, I had a new shop to build, barns to build, a kid to raise and a = thousand other distractions, so that it took till now to get interested = again. 
   Fortunately, my wife only = once made mention of selling it, but from my reaction never mentioned it = again, but I can see how so many projects get abandoned at this = point.
  
 So = from that, what would I do differently? Hard to be sure since I didn't = have the flight experience to make some different choices, but even an = extra year in the shop going at a little slower pace wouldn't have hurt. = That old saying about if you don't have time to do it right the first = time, then when are you going to find time to do it the second time, is = even harder when you are no longer in your well equipped shop while = doing it the second time. Now it's not like the workmanship is bad, when = I say about doing it right, but rather if some of our design choices are = constrained by the amount of work involved. Now I would rather do an = almost unreasonable amount of work in the comfort of my shop than almost = anything in the field. I really enjoy building at home, but when it's = not at home I just want to fly it.
  =  Previously I would cling to questionable half-baked ideas because = of the time and money that I'd invested in it. That's not to say that = half-baked ideas are all bad, but now I'll be far more likely to move on = and try something else regardless of time and money investment if I = don't feel good about something.
   So = when you're considering something like relocating a cooler and are = certain that it would improve performance but don't want to to do the = work involved, just do it when you're still in a well equipped and = convenient work space.
   And all you = lucky SOB's that have an airstrip and hangar at home, you can disregard = this advice.
I could fill several more posts about = more specific items that I'd do differently but this was really the big = picture and once again it may seem obvious to many but that has been my = experience.

Todd = Bartrim
RV9 13Bturbo

Ps. I often get asked about how many = hours are involved in building this plane. I just laugh and say I don't = know or care. It doesn't matter.

Ernest = Christley

7:35 AM (7 hours ago)
3D""
3D""
3D""
to Rotary
<= div class=3D"gmail-qQVYZb" style=3D"font-size: inherit;">
Ge= orge started us on a good topic.  Building an airplane is an = expensive and labor intensive process.  I've made many decisions = where I didn't really like something, but liked the prospect of the time = and expense to change it even less.  Those things don't tend to get = as much coverage in discussions as what was actually done, even though = there is a real lesson in what the person who just did something wishes = they'd done differently.
Th= is thread could be renamed "What I'd done differently"
An= other good one would be "What I'd do = again"

= --Apple-Mail=_DCFB82F0-E346-4A8F-B8D5-CC788C47240E--