X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "steve Izett" Received: from mail-pg0-f47.google.com ([74.125.83.47] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.12) with ESMTPS id 9147865 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:59:12 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.83.47; envelope-from=steveize@gmail.com Received: by mail-pg0-f47.google.com with SMTP id 3so83521187pgd.0 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:59:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=47Tp2r6W0HZPQVCG3g88bmERKV9YkcP3JDpon3uFHiw=; b=XUQITFnaA/BCLzqcIMHH1w5tsrWOYO4oWxjZigY6gnCWKmChIgzxhljyYrzU2CAbFr h19o9ynHFKIRq/WxYj8rj4Y2r17O/O3D76MisF5TyPG3TV31o9JR7pToUAd/RpAa0iVz zSDwKotwbj2Si5s9Y2/TRdrdcIQWB1o8IO99dP4sfmgHbDwsNJ3h125X2gH41pdPcD3x JfEa/KxnQCiyc5LUqvy+B+K90/Sm/Bt70KGSeS1qt4m5QbNXttVvxin1hBh/AIrUrDIL 6YVdblv5InjllU9EaZs6MnKfVR1P1DjbPXmM3FUz4LlAfpJ4Kwqh6qCyaxi7PbJ6fBKK i9Qg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=47Tp2r6W0HZPQVCG3g88bmERKV9YkcP3JDpon3uFHiw=; b=kHcGAX3x6mLq7zkJzdgD7OtQOHBaxGQSCwOhoQdKJISAXgLEI9vGmJC7FVHzpByinZ sZaBzmtz9c0i5n4GM8wwrUy7olMYAm0oDHydU7MuwQjtb/6JcGEUeUkNPC/tQ7koc843 4GrJrKiS1lyr5kiLY69RefAZltvSukbpm03YohhEjdPeEmWUdIn+FQXjqNdcwLml1m97 T3ibG0P+qtPkJaZGnYuZ/9c56ssJU55PZ6k2Iv6UlnAYCbxsJ9sPTXb3x7oiIKJI9EEV B4boJqivbIwZvt2JUAh1MY/tRjmM8rxp0S9JCWLSWAACttKqcJ1RYy5SUUgCLu6T6EvM UM0w== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvcGi0GZt2raAIjqA0GNIEHv1lcH/AE0jxJudRL77AYc7pge2cbKKv+iE5B/NzeP4w== X-Received: by 10.98.64.195 with SMTP id f64mr7709248pfd.16.1479333532489; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:58:52 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from [10.1.1.5] (124-148-220-116.dyn.iinet.net.au. [124.148.220.116]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f14sm43834828pfk.5.2016.11.16.13.58.49 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:58:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BB79C616-3B83-4E12-B0E6-03B63AF2317D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 05:58:47 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00230C67-F270-43A4-A425-F3BDEA485F1D@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) --Apple-Mail=_BB79C616-3B83-4E12-B0E6-03B63AF2317D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Charlie Steve > On 16 Nov. 2016, at 9:36 pm, Charlie England = wrote: >=20 > Steve, >=20 > There are some very good articles on cooling drag on the CAFE = Foundation web site. One thing they mention is that the most efficient = exit is a 'bluff body'. I believe the info is in 'Local Flow 2' on the = site: > http://cafe.foundation/v2/research_reports.php = >=20 > There was some work done here in the USA many years ago that showed = inlet size can be relatively non-critical to drag, as long as the shape = of the inlet lip is done correctly. The technique was to regulate total = flow through the system with an exit flap. The concept was to use = 'external diffusion', where the air was slowed at the opening, instead = of inside the cooling duct. Testing showed that there was little = difference in total drag, but duct construction was simplified since = shape/surface finish were not as critical (air was already moving slowly = when it entered the duct). I think Tracy played with the technique a bit = on the RV-8; perhaps he can add some info. >=20 > Charlie >=20 > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 6:21 AM, Stephen Izett = > = wrote: > Thanks Finn > I had forgotten the this previously was the plan. > Steve >> On 16 Nov. 2016, at 7:55 pm, Finn Lassen > wrote: >>=20 >> Don't forget the rather simple option of extra cooling by a mist of = water sprayed on the radiators. A little tank with water and a = windshield wiper pump. Good for long taxiing and takeoff. >>=20 >> Certainly not a bad option for first flight. >>=20 >> Finn >>=20 >> On 11/15/2016 4:23 PM, Stephen Izett wrote: >>> Hi Bill >>> At this point there are no cowl flaps. I tried to create some space = for them should we need to increase exit volume. >>> I think I'd be really happy with those temps. >>>=20 >>> The cowl exits are ramps. When the front gear is down there is = significantly more exit area. >>> There is about 36in2 of exit area (Gear door closed).=20 >>> Inlet area is currently 17in2 (right cheek) feeding water exchanger = and 7in2 (lower round intake) feeding oil cooler. 7in2 of Left cheek = feeds air into the filter / throttle body, leaving about 10in2 of the = left cheek blanked off at present. >>>=20 >>> The Prop is a second hand electric adjustable from New Zealand. They = are no longer available. Its performance is unknown at this stage. The = design was taken over by Phil at www.sprintaero.com = . >>>=20 >>> Have you heard of anyone using electric fans for on the ground = running? >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>> Steve Izett >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 15 Nov. 2016, at 11:26 pm, Bill Bradburry = > = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Steve, >>>> =20 >>>> You could try using SCAT ducting to route any unused inlets over to = the water to improve the volume of air. What do your cowl exits look = like? >>>> In order to really know how everything is working you are going to = have to fly. It will be difficult to do a full power takeoff and then = go into high speed cruise and have the cooling work perfectly for both = conditions unless you have cowl flaps or some manner of controlling the = air. I currently accept 210-220 on takeoff in order to get 180-190 in = cruise. >>>> =20 >>>> That plane is going to be fast! It looks like 200K just sitting in = the hangar! >>>> =20 >>>> What prop is that? >>>> =20 >>>> Bill=20 >>>> =20 >>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ]=20 >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 3:13 AM >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling >>>> =20 >>>> Hi there Bill. >>>>> The water exchanger is ~540 cubic inch in capacity and fed from = the right cheek via a rotating trumpet = shaped diffuser which in turn feeds a wedge. The oil exchanger is a = turbo RX7 unit of 190 cubic inch capacity and fed via a trumpet/wedge = diffuser fed from below the spinner. >>>> I=E2=80=99ll send some pictures separately as they are together to = large. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>> Cheers >>>> Steve Izett >>>> =20 >>>> >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 15 Nov. 2016, at 1:00 pm, Bill Bradburry = > = wrote: >>>> =20 >>>> Steve, >>>> Can you share any photos of your cooling install? Oil and water. >>>>=20 >>>> Bill=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ]=20 >>>> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 4:21 PM >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling >>>>=20 >>>> Hi guys. >>>> The Glasair SIIRG is near completion and we are taxi testing. >>>> The OAT is rising as we enter summer. Yesterday was 37C ~ 100F. >>>> She can idle forever with water stabilising below 220F and oil = below 180F if >>>> the OAT is below 70F but not sure yet about the warmer days. >>>> I'm wondering about 3 options and would value your experience and = thoughts: >>>> 1. Route some more air from the left cheek into the water heat = exchange >>>> diffuser currently fed by the right cheek. I am currently only = using 50% of >>>> the left cheek (Blanked off). The other 50% of the left cheek feeds = air to >>>> the engine. The air is likely not to want to do the gymnastics = required to >>>> travel the path available.=20 >>>> 2. Install another small core fed by the available left cheek air = with water >>>> from the heater outlet. This would make for easy plumping as far as = the >>>> water system. I'm not sure how much heat we could reject from that = small >>>> diameter heater outlet? >>>> 3. Install an electric fan on the main exchanger for extended on = the ground >>>> running. Main concern with fan is, what happens when cruising at up = to >>>> 200Knots?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Appreciate you feedback >>>>=20 >>>> Steve Izett >>>> Glasair SIIRG Genesis 4 port RD1C EC2 >>>> Perth Western Australia >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = >>=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_BB79C616-3B83-4E12-B0E6-03B63AF2317D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks Charlie
Steve
On = 16 Nov. 2016, at 9:36 pm, Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Steve,

There are some very good articles on cooling drag on the CAFE = Foundation web site. One thing they mention is that the most efficient = exit is a 'bluff body'. I believe the info is in 'Local Flow 2' on the = site:
http://cafe.foundation/v2/research_reports.php

There was some work done here in the USA many years ago that = showed inlet size can be relatively non-critical to drag, as long as the = shape of the inlet lip is done correctly. The technique was to regulate = total flow through the system with an exit flap. The concept was to use = 'external diffusion', where the air was slowed at the opening, instead = of inside the cooling duct. Testing showed that there was little = difference in total drag, but duct construction was simplified since = shape/surface finish were not as critical (air was already moving slowly = when it entered the duct). I think Tracy played with the technique a bit = on the RV-8; perhaps he can add some info.

Charlie

On Wed, = Nov 16, 2016 at 6:21 AM, Stephen Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Finn
I = had forgotten the this previously was the plan.
Steve
On 16 Nov. 2016, at 7:55 pm, Finn Lassen = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=20 =20 =20
Don't forget the = rather simple option of extra cooling by a mist of water sprayed on the radiators. A little tank with water and a windshield wiper pump. Good for long taxiing and takeoff.

Certainly not a bad option for first flight.

Finn

On 11/15/2016 4:23 PM, Stephen Izett wrote:
=20 Hi Bill
At this point there are no cowl flaps. I tried to create some space for them should we need to increase exit volume.
I think I'd be really happy with those = temps.

The cowl exits are ramps. When the front gear is down there is significantly more exit area.
There is about 36in2 of exit area (Gear door closed). 
Inlet area is currently 17in2 (right cheek) = feeding water exchanger and 7in2 (lower round intake) feeding oil cooler. 7in2 of Left cheek feeds air into the filter / throttle body, leaving about 10in2 of the left cheek blanked off at present.

The Prop is a second hand electric adjustable from New Zealand. They are no longer available. Its performance is unknown at this stage. The design was taken over by Phil at =  www.sprintaero.com .

Have you heard of anyone using electric fans for = on the ground running?

Cheers
Steve Izett





On 15 Nov. 2016, at 11:26 pm, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Steve,
 
You = could try using SCAT ducting to route any unused inlets over to the water to improve the volume of air.  What do your cowl = exits look like?
In = order to really know how everything is working you are going to have to fly.  It will be difficult to do a full power takeoff and then go into high speed cruise and have the cooling work perfectly for both conditions unless you have cowl flaps or some manner of controlling the air.  = I currently accept 210-220 on takeoff in order to get 180-190 in cruise.
 
That = plane is going to be fast!  It looks like = 200K just sitting in the hangar!
 
What = prop is that?
 
Bill 
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Tuesday,= November 15, 2016 3:13 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Cooling
 
Hi there Bill.
The= water exchanger is ~540 cubic inch in capacity and fed from the right cheek via a rotating trumpet shaped diffuser which in turn feeds a wedge. The oil exchanger is a turbo RX7 unit of 190 cubic inch capacity and fed via a trumpet/wedge diffuser fed from below the spinner.
I=E2=80=99ll send some pictures separately as they are together to large.

 
Cheers
Steve Izett
 
<image001.jpg>
 
 
 
 

On 15 Nov. 2016, at 1:00 pm, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
 
Steve,
Can you share any photos of your cooling install?  Oil and = water.

Bill 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 4:21 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling

Hi guys.
The Glasair SIIRG is near completion and we are taxi testing.
The OAT is rising as we enter summer. Yesterday was 37C ~ = 100F.
She can idle forever with water stabilising below 220F and oil below 180F if
the OAT is below 70F but not sure yet about the warmer days.
I'm wondering about 3 options and would value your experience and thoughts:
1. Route some more air from the left cheek into the water heat exchange
diffuser currently fed by the right cheek. I am currently only using 50% of
the left cheek (Blanked off). The other 50% of the left cheek feeds air to
the engine. The air is likely not to want to do the gymnastics required to
travel the path available. 
2. Install another small core fed by the available left cheek air with water
from the heater outlet. This would make for easy plumping as far as the
water system. I'm not sure how much heat we could reject from that small
diameter heater outlet?
3. Install an electric fan on the main exchanger for extended on the ground
running. Main concern with fan is, what happens when cruising at up to
200Knots? 

Appreciate you feedback

Steve Izett
Glasair SIIRG Genesis 4 port RD1C EC2
Perth Western Australia


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