X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Charlie England" Received: from mail-vk0-f48.google.com ([209.85.213.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.12) with ESMTPS id 9145708 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:36:59 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.48; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-vk0-f48.google.com with SMTP id p9so114607314vkd.3 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:36:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=snvD1oln70XraPxA6c/jaIczrGI2olftywVJA+BqeBU=; b=VIjcYTGKTnRLfJA8NxPBQhKAQmTrXFRAV3OsR5iy+K0Tgy6LXgSxK9gfvo7VgQzYpz rm+upjgmsUM7HyE7DstRACq5VCnCd3G4CnM2XoB0dygd2x+TuIIJwmZiGUl8iYgzFFWM E9Y3EJrSAY3EhfIkevBUqoNw6C/6gqOfj59ddtunsNpp45prXKq/wuOrYxgJME2c1Kca 2GSmLX1YzDSckUhMLiiRePhwb6jDHdMqTviNn4x01EEWkS4JPAHHb/g1msykkbewuIz6 4Wvr6O/IlWt/pp94PjNahQqYs30SUuDCjFJQoy7+rGVQxpRd0x90ZH2mMa63eBVCJIsu GJkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=snvD1oln70XraPxA6c/jaIczrGI2olftywVJA+BqeBU=; b=IM3iUrCHiCqLihmJcZngIN/Sw9cksrx5rOQSoucl3hGQvk30ZJcRgYBErdSDJ1HrY5 Bq1ybcdb25gerWR01w+zum5Ycc8FXibjsNDoxDSVcMP3OpSXI1vLH+59+xuE/c4zXs3B 8f1Z6TNK8UXNonk0vriNQJKfnGw2erMe+rW9VaEOHbMQkVY+fQ1zv8LKxYOUTECfapWc gvYN7I9o1ufubAFQlIfoEhn3Z/kCqnmIFuINVPZh1kesCNLCbr5jZ+95TwwnN8TQbBDG 8P4YqQnUEXVVoV3eO15mxjcHzI0/d3y5MzpMr4KG/WdFYUlRFqHnKPtums7TFPF+3ulq +RBg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvdumkWYn/GaKlwoowiitvov+p+Z4VBMyR3Liwuy8nOM5mE6VHWCxYzFRufCuPM3OWCSZDyKUJN2YHByTQ== X-Received: by 10.31.67.8 with SMTP id q8mr1528158vka.43.1479303401343; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:36:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.50.23 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:36:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:36:40 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1148e1f2c08f3b05416b292e --001a1148e1f2c08f3b05416b292e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, There are some very good articles on cooling drag on the CAFE Foundation web site. One thing they mention is that the most efficient exit is a 'bluff body'. I believe the info is in 'Local Flow 2' on the site: http://cafe.foundation/v2/research_reports.php There was some work done here in the USA many years ago that showed inlet size can be relatively non-critical to drag, as long as the shape of the inlet lip is done correctly. The technique was to regulate total flow through the system with an exit flap. The concept was to use 'external diffusion', where the air was slowed at the opening, instead of inside the cooling duct. Testing showed that there was little difference in total drag, but duct construction was simplified since shape/surface finish were not as critical (air was already moving slowly when it entered the duct). I think Tracy played with the technique a bit on the RV-8; perhaps he can add some info. Charlie On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 6:21 AM, Stephen Izett wrote: > Thanks Finn > I had forgotten the this previously was the plan. > Steve > > On 16 Nov. 2016, at 7:55 pm, Finn Lassen > wrote: > > Don't forget the rather simple option of extra cooling by a mist of water > sprayed on the radiators. A little tank with water and a windshield wiper > pump. Good for long taxiing and takeoff. > > Certainly not a bad option for first flight. > > Finn > > On 11/15/2016 4:23 PM, Stephen Izett wrote: > > Hi Bill > At this point there are no cowl flaps. I tried to create some space for > them should we need to increase exit volume. > I think I'd be really happy with those temps. > > The cowl exits are ramps. When the front gear is down there is > significantly more exit area. > There is about 36in2 of exit area (Gear door closed). > Inlet area is currently 17in2 (right cheek) feeding water exchanger and > 7in2 (lower round intake) feeding oil cooler. 7in2 of Left cheek feeds ai= r > into the filter / throttle body, leaving about 10in2 of the left cheek > blanked off at present. > > The Prop is a second hand electric adjustable from New Zealand. They are > no longer available. Its performance is unknown at this stage. The design > was taken over by Phil at www.sprintaero.com . > > Have you heard of anyone using electric fans for on the ground running? > > Cheers > Steve Izett > > > > > > On 15 Nov. 2016, at 11:26 pm, Bill Bradburry > wrote: > > Steve, > > You could try using SCAT ducting to route any unused inlets over to the > water to improve the volume of air. What do your cowl exits look like? > In order to really know how everything is working you are going to have t= o > fly. It will be difficult to do a full power takeoff and then go into hi= gh > speed cruise and have the cooling work perfectly for both conditions unle= ss > you have cowl flaps or some manner of controlling the air. I currently > accept 210-220 on takeoff in order to get 180-190 in cruise. > > That plane is going to be fast! It looks like 200K just sitting in the > hangar! > > What prop is that? > > Bill > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net > ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2016 3:13 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling > > Hi there Bill. > > The water exchanger is ~540 cubic inch in capacity and fed from the right > cheek via a rotating trumpet shaped diffuser which in turn feeds a wedge. > The oil exchanger is a turbo RX7 unit of 190 cubic inch capacity and fed > via a trumpet/wedge diffuser fed from below the spinner. > > I=E2=80=99ll send some pictures separately as they are together to large. > > > Cheers > Steve Izett > > > > > > > > > On 15 Nov. 2016, at 1:00 pm, Bill Bradburry > wrote: > > Steve, > Can you share any photos of your cooling install? Oil and water. > > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net > ] > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 4:21 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling > > Hi guys. > The Glasair SIIRG is near completion and we are taxi testing. > The OAT is rising as we enter summer. Yesterday was 37C ~ 100F. > She can idle forever with water stabilising below 220F and oil below 180F > if > the OAT is below 70F but not sure yet about the warmer days. > I'm wondering about 3 options and would value your experience and thought= s: > 1. Route some more air from the left cheek into the water heat exchange > diffuser currently fed by the right cheek. I am currently only using 50% = of > the left cheek (Blanked off). The other 50% of the left cheek feeds air t= o > the engine. The air is likely not to want to do the gymnastics required t= o > travel the path available. > 2. Install another small core fed by the available left cheek air with > water > from the heater outlet. This would make for easy plumping as far as the > water system. I'm not sure how much heat we could reject from that small > diameter heater outlet? > 3. Install an electric fan on the main exchanger for extended on the grou= nd > running. Main concern with fan is, what happens when cruising at up to > 200Knots? > > Appreciate you feedback > > Steve Izett > Glasair SIIRG Genesis 4 port RD1C EC2 > Perth Western Australia > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline. > net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > --001a1148e1f2c08f3b05416b292e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve,

There are some very good article= s on cooling drag on the CAFE Foundation web site. One thing they mention i= s that the most efficient exit is a 'bluff body'. I believe the inf= o is in 'Local Flow 2' on the site:

There was some work done here in= the USA many years ago that showed inlet size can be relatively non-critic= al to drag, as long as the shape of the inlet lip is done correctly. The te= chnique was to regulate total flow through the system with an exit flap. Th= e concept was to use 'external diffusion', where the air was slowed= at the opening, instead of inside the cooling duct. Testing showed that th= ere was little difference in total drag, but duct construction was simplifi= ed since shape/surface finish were not as critical (air was already moving = slowly when it entered the duct). I think Tracy played with the technique a= bit on the RV-8; perhaps he can add some info.

Ch= arlie

= On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 6:21 AM, Stephen Izett <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net> wrote:
Thanks Finn
I had forgotten the this previ= ously was the plan.
Steve
= On 16 Nov. 2016, at 7:55 pm, Finn Lassen <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrot= e:

=20 =20 =20
Don't forget th= e rather simple option of extra cooling by a mist of water sprayed on the radiators. A little tank with water and a windshield wiper pump. Good for long taxiing and takeoff.

Certainly not a bad option for first flight.

Finn

On 11/15/2016 4:23 PM, Stephen Izett wrote:
=20 Hi Bill
At this point there are no cowl flaps. I tried to create some space for them should we need to increase exit volume.
I think I'd be really happy with those temps.

The cowl exits are ramps. When the front gear is down there is significantly more exit area.
There is about 36in2 of exit area (Gear door closed).=C2=A0
Inlet area is currently 17in2 (right cheek) feeding water exchanger and 7in2 (lower round intake) feeding oil cooler. 7in2 of Left cheek feeds air into the filter / throttle body, leaving about 10in2 of the left cheek blanked off at present.

The Prop is a second hand electric adjustable from New Zealand. They are no longer available. Its performance is unknown at this stage. The design was taken over by Phil at =C2=A0<= a href=3D"http://www.sprintaero.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.sprintaero.com<= /a>=C2=A0.

Have you heard of anyone using electric fans for on the ground running?

Cheers
Steve Izett





On 15 Nov. 2016, at 11:26 pm, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

St= eve,
=C2=A0
Yo= u could try using SCAT ducting to route any unused inlets over to the water to improve the volume of air.=C2=A0 What do your cowl exits look like?
In= order to really know how everything is working you are going to have to fly.=C2=A0 It will be difficult to do a full power takeoff and then go into high speed cruise and have the cooling work perfectly for both conditions unless you have cowl flaps or some manner of controlling the air.=C2=A0 I currently accept 210-220 on takeoff in order to get 180-190 in cruise.=
=C2=A0
Th= at plane is going to be fast!=C2=A0 It looks like 200K just sitting in the hangar!
=C2=A0
Wh= at prop is that?
=C2=A0
Bi= ll=C2=A0<= u>
=C2=A0
From:= =C2=A0Rotary motors in aircraft=C2=A0[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=C2=A0
Sent:=C2=A0<= /span>Tuesday, November 15, 2016 3:13 AM
To:=C2=A0Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject= :=C2= =A0[FlyRotary] Re: Cooling
=C2=A0
Hi there Bill.<= /font>
The water exchanger is ~540 cubic inch in capacity and fed from the right cheek via a rotating trumpet shaped diffuser which in turn feeds a wedge. The oil exchanger is a turbo RX7 unit of 190 cubic inch capacity and fed via a trumpet/wedge diffuser fed from below the spinner.
= I=E2=80=99ll send some pictures separately as they are together to large.

=C2=A0
Cheers
Steve Izett
=C2=A0
<image001.jpg>=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=

On 15 Nov. 2016, at 1:00 pm, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
= =C2=A0
Steve,
Can you share any photos of your cooling install?=C2=A0 Oil and water.=

Bill=C2=A0

-----Original Message-----
From:=C2=A0Rotary motors in aircraft=C2=A0[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=C2=A0
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 4:21 PM
To:=C2=A0Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling

Hi guys.
The Glasair SIIRG is near completion and we are taxi testing.
The OAT is rising as we enter summer. Yesterday was 37C ~ 100F.
She can idle forever with water stabilising below 220F and oil below 180F if
the OAT is below 70F but not sure yet about the warmer days.
I'm wondering about 3 options and would value your experience and thoughts:
1. Route some more air from the left cheek into the water heat exchange
diffuser currently fed by the right cheek. I am currently only using 50% of
the left cheek (Blanked off). The other 50% of the left cheek feeds air to
the engine. The air is likely not to want to do the gymnastics required to
travel the path available.=C2=A0
2. Install another small core fed by the available left cheek air with water
from the heater outlet. This would make for easy plumping as far as the
water system. I'm not sure how much heat we could reject from that small
diameter heater outlet?
3. Install an electric fan on the main exchanger for extended on the ground
running. Main concern with fan is, what happens when cruising at up to
200Knots?=C2=A0

Appreciate you feedback

Steve Izett
Glasair SIIRG Genesis 4 port RD1C EC2
Perth=C2=A0Western Australia


--
Homepage: =C2=A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrota= ry/List.html


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Homepage: =C2=A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =C2=A0=C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l




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