X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Neil Unger" Received: from nschwmtas04p.mx.bigpond.com ([61.9.189.146] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.12) with ESMTPS id 9045916 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:30:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.9.189.146; envelope-from=neil.unger@bigpond.com Received: from nschwcmgw06p ([61.9.190.166]) by nschwmtas04p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20161018203014.IZTG2115.nschwmtas04p.mx.bigpond.com@nschwcmgw06p> for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2016 20:30:14 +0000 Received: from UserPC ([124.176.116.200]) by nschwcmgw06p with BigPond Outbound id x8WB1t00p4KVrpG018WCCZ; Tue, 18 Oct 2016 20:30:14 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=e//7Mvd/ c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=O5tqbbbgudb3sV3SZzXCuw==:117 a=O5tqbbbgudb3sV3SZzXCuw==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=j1tw-_t4QpoPgE8-r-AA:9 a=6RWj26baTUBksBNS:21 a=iLWdHY6oJEKGRaK3:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=oUaKCwnEAAAA:8 a=gNZ8gQSO6I61sIDyH3YA:9 a=QvFOKLv7sRhGQ39p:21 a=GIXeL_OiFVqEkqA0:21 a=Cf5EALQ1pLJRYiEQ:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=vqxOGvtCsI9TNJPBoDZ-:22 Message-ID: <7D98BF0F3B2F41B2BB760BF87450707E@UserPC> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New Gearbox and P-Port Renesis Update- for Neil Unger Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 07:29:25 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01D229DA.84FB3270" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01D229DA.84FB3270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charlie, No testing whatever. It comes back to basic instinct. To get = the tests required would put the cost out of reach of everyone. No I do = not do aerobatics. Everyone has their own opinion re what is = =E2=80=9Cadequate =E2=80=9C in these things. Just how much will the = engine rear plate stand? All these questions are relevant. So to = directly answer your question, I have not directly addressed these = issues. The only quick way is to test to destruction. Everything in = this life is a risk. Each individual must assess what risk is = acceptable. Cheers, Neil From: Charlie England=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:14 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Gearbox and P-Port Renesis Update- for Neil = Unger Please keep us updated. I'm really hopeful that the Renesis P-port with = plenum/throttle body/port injection will idle at a more conventional = rpm, since it has less overlap than a 13B & better mixture 'insertion'.=20 I'm guessing that you don't do acro in that airframe. Did you do any = stress analysis on mounting the drive plate with just the round spacers = & using the motor mount attached to the plate? IIRC, Tracy was a bit = concerned with using the plate for the motor mount attach, even with his = block shaped spacers, since the plate now carries the engine weight in = bending, in addition to the drive weight. He also wasn't crazy about = cutting pockets in the plate, because it removed material in some highly = stressed areas. Probably not a major issue in normal category, but we RV = drivers have to be a little more cautious. :-) How did you address those = issues? Again, please keep the info coming. you guys are doing a lot to keep the = rotary movement alive! Charlie On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Neil Unger = wrote: Charlie, actually still experimenting. The housing is turned on a = jig in the lathe as the cost of a thread tap for that size exceeds = $2000!! Ouch. The inner that seals onto the plug was just high temp = sealer. The outer can be sealer or wick in locktite. The plug is = aluminium with a taper that is left rough to turbulate the air. = apparently very necessary. There are many ways to p port, so about to get some scrapped housings = to experiment with various methods. Cheapest and best whatever that = turns out to be. =20 My second engine has a single TB. About to fire up so will be a ball = of knowledge as to what to NOT do shortly. Attached shows the TB and PSRU. I have put 2.25 runners on to see it = it makes a difference. (not shown) Neil. On 10/17/2016 11:06 PM, Charlie England wrote: Hi Neil,=20 Thanks for the pics, and please keep sharing. Can you give us a blow-by-blow on the process? Do you simply bore = the housing on a mill? Straight threads? How do you seal them? Any = special techniques where the port goes through the chrome liner? Thread = diameter? ID of the pipe? Aluminum, steel, or stainless? And are you saying that one of you is running individual TB's, as = shown in the pics, and the other has a plenum with single TB? Any = noticeable differences in HP, BSFC, idle quality, etc? My hat's off to y'all; you're doing some really interesting and = innovative work! Charlie On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 11:54 PM, Neil Unger = wrote: Kelly, on the twin TB they are 50 mm while on the single (cheaper) = is 80 mm, comes off a V8. Neil. On 10/17/2016 3:30 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: Neil,=20 What size are the throttle body throats ??............ Kelly Troyer On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Neil Unger = wrote: Charlie If your eyes are good enough you can jsu see the = threads on the inlet P port plugs. They are joined with the clamp to = the TB's. I Have another close up I will try and find. Neil On 10/17/2016 2:33 PM, Charlie England wrote: And total size of the email must be less than 200K, if = memory serves. Do you have any image resizing software? Charlie (wanting to see details on those screw-in P-ports) On 10/16/2016 10:26 PM, Neil Unger wrote: Chris, Only one Pic per email seems to be the go, Neil On 10/17/2016 2:07 PM, Christian And Tam wrote: No worries Do you have a personal email as I can't seem to post to = this forum with pics Cheers Sent from my iPhone On 17 Oct 2016, at 6:34 am, Bobby J. Hughes = wrote: Christian What manifold pressure do you see at idle? I would = love to see a few pictures of your FWF.=20 Bobby Sent from my iPad On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Christian And Tamara = Mcdonald wrote: Hi Bobby=20 I went for a single 90mm tb and plenum over the = opposite side of the motor and seems to work well, idles at approx 2150 = and happily there. Could get lower but prop speed is low enough. Cheers Christian On Monday, 17 October 2016, Bobby J. Hughes = wrote: Individual TB's were used so they could be located = as close to the block as possible for improved idle and throttle = response. Idle is still at 18" MP cold and a little lower after warm = up. The renesis should have little or no overlap so the single throttle = body before the intake manifold appears to work well. Sale is pending for second buyer. Not sure if = engine is staying with the plane or being removed. Bobby Sent from my iPad > On Oct 16, 2016, at 10:38 AM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: > > Bobby, > Do you know why he did the three TBs and not a = plenum with one TB? > Also I thought I saw where the sale of his plane = was pending. What is going on there? Was it sold as a flying plane or = did you remove the engine? > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 8:50 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Gearbox and P-Port = Renesis Update- for Neil Unger > > Mark Steitle experienced sticky slide throttle. = He modified it several times and eventually switched to one butterfly TB = per rotor. > > Bobby > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Neil Unger = wrote: >> >> Doug, Had severe problems with a slide = throttle, went with butterfly and no problems since. Neil. >> >> >>> On 10/16/2016 7:07 PM, Doug Lomheim wrote: >>> Hi Neil: >>> >>> I have read where some P-Port attempts have = resulted in a =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93sticky=C3=A2=E2=82=AC throttle due = to suction at certain power applications, etc. Do you experience any = issues such as that with your set up? >>> >>> thx. >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01D229DA.84FB3270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Charlie,  No testing whatever.  It comes back to basic=20 instinct.  To get the tests required would put the cost out of = reach of=20 everyone.  No I do not do aerobatics.  Everyone has their own = opinion=20 re what is =E2=80=9Cadequate =E2=80=9C in these things.  Just how = much will the engine rear=20 plate stand?  All these questions are relevant.  So to = directly answer=20 your question,  I have not directly addressed these issues.  = The only=20 quick way is to test to destruction.  Everything in this life is a = risk.=20 Each individual must assess what risk is acceptable.  Cheers,  = Neil
 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:14 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Gearbox and P-Port Renesis = Update- for=20 Neil Unger
 
Please keep us updated. I'm really hopeful that the = Renesis P-port=20 with plenum/throttle body/port injection will idle at a more = conventional rpm,=20 since it has less overlap than a 13B & better mixture 'insertion'.=20
 
I'm guessing that you don't do acro in that airframe. Did you do = any stress=20 analysis on mounting the drive plate with just the round spacers & = using the=20 motor mount attached to the plate? IIRC, Tracy was a bit concerned with = using=20 the plate for the motor mount attach, even with his block shaped = spacers, since=20 the plate now carries the engine weight in bending, in addition to the = drive=20 weight. He also wasn't crazy about cutting pockets in the plate, because = it=20 removed material in some highly stressed areas. Probably not a major = issue in=20 normal category, but we RV drivers have to be a little more cautious. = :-) How=20 did you address those issues?
 
Again, please keep the info coming. you guys are doing a lot to = keep the=20 rotary movement alive!
 
Charlie
 
On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Neil Unger = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie,  actually still experimenting.  The housing is = turned on=20 a jig in the lathe as the cost of a thread tap for that size exceeds = $2000!!=20 Ouch.  The inner that seals onto the plug was just high temp=20 sealer.  The outer can be sealer or wick in locktite.  The = plug is=20 aluminium with a taper that is left rough to turbulate the air. = apparently=20 very necessary.

There are many ways to p port, so about to get some scrapped = housings to=20 experiment with various methods.  Cheapest and best whatever that = turns=20 out to be.   

My second engine has a single TB.  About to fire up so will be = a ball=20 of knowledge as to what to NOT do shortly.

Attached shows the TB and PSRU. I have put 2.25 runners on  to = see it=20 it makes a difference. (not shown)  Neil.


On 10/17/2016 11:06 = PM,=20 Charlie England wrote:
Hi Neil,=20
 
Thanks for the pics, and please keep sharing.
 
Can you give us a blow-by-blow on the process? Do you simply = bore the=20 housing on a mill? Straight threads? How do you seal them? Any = special=20 techniques where the port goes through the chrome liner? Thread = diameter? ID=20 of the pipe? Aluminum, steel, or stainless?
 
And are you saying that one of you is running individual TB's, = as shown=20 in the pics, and the other has a plenum with single TB? Any = noticeable=20 differences in HP, BSFC, idle quality, etc?
 
My hat's off to y'all; you're doing some really interesting and = innovative work!
 
Charlie
 
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 11:54 PM, Neil = Unger <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Kelly, on the twin TB they are 50 mm while on the single = (cheaper) is=20 80 mm, comes off a V8.  Neil.


On=20 10/17/2016 3:30 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
Neil,=20
  What size are the throttle body throats = ??............
 
Kelly Troyer
 
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Neil = Unger=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Charlie  If your eyes are good enough you can jsu see = the=20 threads on the inlet P port plugs.  They are joined with = the=20 clamp to the TB's.  I Have another close up I will try = and=20 find.  Neil

 
On=20 10/17/2016 2:33 PM, Charlie England wrote:
And=20 total size of the email must be less than 200K, if memory = serves. Do=20 you have any image resizing = software?

Charlie
(wanting to=20 see details on those screw-in P-ports)

On 10/16/2016 = 10:26=20 PM, Neil Unger wrote:

Chris,  Only one Pic per email seems to be the = go, =20 Neil


On=20 10/17/2016 2:07 PM, Christian And Tam wrote:
No worries
Do you have a personal email as I can't seem to = post to=20 this forum with pics
 
Cheers

Sent from my iPhone

On 17 Oct 2016, at 6:34 am, Bobby J. Hughes = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:

Christian
What=20 manifold pressure do you see at idle?  I would = love to=20 see a few pictures of your FWF.
 
 
Bobby
 
 
 


Sent=20 from my iPad

On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Christian And = Tamara=20 Mcdonald <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:

Hi Bobby=20
I went for a single 90mm tb and plenum over the = opposite side of the motor and seems to work well, = idles at=20 approx 2150 and happily there.
Could get lower but prop speed is low = enough.
 
Cheers
Christian

On Monday, 17 October 2016, = Bobby J.=20 Hughes <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
Individual=20 TB's were used so they could be located as close = to the=20 block as possible for improved idle and throttle = response.=20 Idle is still at 18"  MP cold and a little = lower=20 after warm up. The renesis should have little or = no=20 overlap so the single throttle body before the = intake=20 manifold appears to work well.

Sale is = pending for=20 second buyer. Not sure if engine is staying with = the plane=20 or being removed.

Bobby

Sent from my = iPad

> On Oct 16, 2016, at 10:38 AM, = Bill=20 Bradburry = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:
>
> Bobby,
> Do you know = why he=20 did the three TBs and not a plenum with one = TB?
>=20 Also I thought I saw where the sale of his plane = was=20 pending.  What is going on there?  Was = it sold=20 as a flying plane or did you remove the = engine?
>=20 Bill
>
> -----Original = Message-----
>=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
>=20 Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 8:50 AM
> To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: New=20 Gearbox and P-Port Renesis Update- for Neil=20 Unger
>
> Mark Steitle experienced = sticky=20 slide throttle. He modified it several times and=20 eventually switched to one butterfly TB per=20 rotor.
>
> Bobby
>
> Sent = from my=20 iPad
>
>> On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:50 = AM, Neil=20 Unger <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:
>>
>> Doug,  Had = severe=20 problems with a slide throttle,  went with = butterfly=20 and no problems since. =20 Neil.
>>
>>
>>> On=20 10/16/2016 7:07 PM, Doug Lomheim = wrote:
>>> Hi=20 Neil:
>>>
>>> I have read = where=20 some P-Port attempts have resulted in a = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93sticky=C3=A2=E2=82=AC =20 throttle due to suction at certain power = applications,=20 etc.  Do you experience any issues such as = that with=20 your set up?
>>>
>>>=20 thx.
>>>
>>>=20 Doug
>>>
>>> = --
>>>=20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html
>>
>>
>>=20 --
>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html
>
>=20 --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html
>
>
>=20 --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html







--
Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html

 
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