X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "steve Izett" Received: from mail-pa0-f46.google.com ([209.85.220.46] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.11) with ESMTPS id 8841798 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 02 Aug 2016 02:00:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.46; envelope-from=steveize@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id iw10so59913336pac.2 for ; Mon, 01 Aug 2016 23:00:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to; bh=l3/ZPL/sbUoTPWIXHyxuqj1GdlMhVLGvzSyjGj3/gHQ=; b=BAHZG5/iPRSr88A5Pml1vdjMj/r1sTPYTrStLGvX48ovcMGjB2BDmm2kE3RrR8I6wk POiVGSwToUqhhzffpdYwl+u26buwC1QtxPhuCHpMTCquAm2W7XlIaYbLpkt2MUUgDtiI JvD+DPKfnTl1yrKZK94iMk1hHcxR/3yxresNUhFDG/fAzKNyX4KzycJBN383cDi0F3QW moebbJr5E2Hm6AYphn/du2rcZy/s8H/e/u8aO5D8HmCUwkcUNVnmS/tRDq+5RVfJswbM IvDpjOhcOTFAvG0ywo7zOK+98DV1MO9gs8z6uVXc+ZBh7l7VCsb80VlegnOM2GPz7iAs ajYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :references:to:in-reply-to; bh=l3/ZPL/sbUoTPWIXHyxuqj1GdlMhVLGvzSyjGj3/gHQ=; b=SWpdY4WY5nlR0ELQjqexn54uHgUBymGSWtW6p207C1fBkNrycfhEXnsQy0052QKbzw goTcvFKMJx3zb7Jr6uj+mIJp65md2uBTN8wK5kmX7UFILZUhCApFbqzlWT+LifxVHsYp Cz0JVEcaCzq4fy9TJfHjtR+ln+YgU5ME2BXRDHZF+a/Q0aEBV3YHdhjtWf4ZwV8MK0F9 3P80FcGqE0Q4IHB3gK1r+fnDruUkzDQt8vnOE+UAEIS2cein2dxrJcmupHG3UEBAvqtH UIh2Z+JrZPC5YjWkVfXN+jbUNfKapuESexWJDQKWTLOlCC9dYNWQRg8EX41PE/ir8kPC r/MQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AEkoouu9NqYc7MOdT9UouQ5sPnKKljVBA3OZGRlUHPhmCJTthU384A4KWfoWymg0dbNPJg== X-Received: by 10.66.183.80 with SMTP id ek16mr102321023pac.21.1470117589746; Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.0.15] ([175.38.56.242]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e187sm1429441pfg.43.2016.08.01.22.59.47 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B36673F9-3404-492B-9DA0-D8878C673A43" Message-Id: <3F206749-93F3-474C-9A3A-F50163F63F9A@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Further testing Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 13:59:44 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) --Apple-Mail=_B36673F9-3404-492B-9DA0-D8878C673A43 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Tracy Ill disconnect and check each connection. Does the rpm for the EM3 come from the EC2 or from Inj #1? Cheers Steve > On 2 Aug 2016, at 1:26 PM, Tracy Crook = wrote: >=20 > That reminded me that my Blue Mountain EFIS caused em2/3 tach = malfunction when the BM was turned off. Other EFIS might cause similar = problems. >=20 > Tracy >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Jul 29, 2016, at 18:59, Stephen Izett > wrote: >=20 >> Thanks heaps you guys. >> So: >> 1. EC2 and CAS signal - the EC2 has got some conditioning on the CAS = sensor inputs done by Tracy so expect this is good and shouldn=E2=80=99t = be the problem. Could put the CRO on the inputs to be sure. >> 2. Good call Bobby re fault finding process to disconnect the sky = view. Easy to unplug the Engine monitor. (should have thought of that, = poor process on my part) >> 3. Injectors and Staging. Injectors are standard 4 port Renesis Red = and Blue. Blues flow twice as much as Red=E2=80=99s, so staging is = delayed till about 19=E2=80=9D as per tracy=E2=80=99s guide.=20 >> Parallel Dynon or EM3 Engine Monitor inputs holding injector #1 open? = Has anyone seen this phenomenon? Disconnecting one and then both will = isolate this as the cause quickly. >> 4. I=E2=80=99ll experiment with both a restriction of 0.6mm (Thanks = Christian and Lyn) and a perhaps a fuel filter to tame the pulses. >> Once again. >> Thanks so much for your input. >> Steve Izett >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 30 Jul 2016, at 9:19 AM, Christian And Tamara Mcdonald = > = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Steve >>> I found it would jump all over the place there was no steady reading = until I installed the restricter, that was installed atop of my plenum = that I made, then I stuck it at the base of the throttle body and I got = a little more accurate readings, but the restricter made all the = differance for me the poor old computer didn't know what to make of it = at first and was backfiring and carrying on and couldn't get a steady = rpm at all. As soon as I changed the position it ran allot better and = smooth. >>> Now even with 90mm tb and the p port its like a turbine down to = 1800rpm, nice and smooth >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>>=20 >>> On Saturday, 30 July 2016, Neil Unger > wrote: >>> Steve, I did initially install the MAP sensor pipes in the oiling = holes and it was a total failure due to getting both vacuum and pressure = in each cycle. Changed it back to just under the throttle bodies and = all was well. Oil holes definitely not! Neil. >>> =20 >>> From: steve Izett = >>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 11:37 PM >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft = >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Further testing >>> =20 >>> Hi Christian >>> What did irregular map signals look like in terms of engine running = on your engine? >>> What engine/setup do you have? >>> =20 >>> Steve >>>> On 29 Jul 2016, at 7:50 PM, Christian And Tamara Mcdonald = > wrote: >>>> =20 >>>> Hi Steve >>>> Just my 2 cents, I had irregular map signals so I installed a mig = welding tip for .6 wire and that sorted it out simply for me. >>>> =20 >>>> Cheers >>>> Christian >>>>=20 >>>> On Friday, 29 July 2016, steve Izett > wrote: >>>> Hi Guys >>>>=20 >>>> We did further testing of the Renesis today. Would really = appreciate your heads on this. >>>> Last series of tests we had this major missing and noise which I = think is fuel exploding in the exhaust. >>>> This happens at various RPM=E2=80=99s based on load from the = adjustable prop. >>>> With fine pitch it would spin out to just over 7000rpm before = striking this mayhem. >>>> With medium pitch it would get to 6000rpm before the same symptoms. >>>> =46rom memory these were both at about 22-23 inches of Hg. >>>> My Wideband O2 is malfunctioning at present. >>>> The narrowband response time appears to slow to discover what the = mixture is doing during the episodes. >>>>=20 >>>> Also still having trouble with the EM3. Sometimes display reads = what appears to be an error message and at other times stops reading = RPM. >>>> The Skyview Engine monitor has the same issue at the same RPM so = appears directly related. >>>> I changed the input on the Skyview to the Standard RPM input as I = incorrectly fed the injector pulse to the lower voltage input, but this = made no difference. >>>>=20 >>>> I had wondered if the secondary injectors weren=E2=80=99t getting = power and as a consequence when it staged to all 4 injectors the trouble = began. >>>> Using the EM3 display (staging asterisk) and switching power off to = the secondaries I was able to ascertain that the secondaries appear to = be functioning fine. >>>> I did notice that the point of staging appears to be not solid. >>>> This takes me back to Ed=E2=80=99s comments re damping the manifold = signal to the EC2. >>>> Sorry Ed, you might have had it right last week. I thought because = it was running so smoothly up to 23 inches that it wasn=E2=80=99t a = signal issue. >>>> Maybe the wavelength/timing of those pulses at ~6000rpm matches the = manifold signal tap position! >>>>=20 >>>> Ed, you mentioned either small orifice or accumulator. I estimate = the volume of the signal line to be approx 18 cubic centimetres. >>>> My gut was that the accumulator required to damp the signal would = need to be an order of magnitude larger. (total guess) >>>> So maybe 180 cc=E2=80=99s but thats half a Coke can! Seem=E2=80=99s = way to big. >>>> Ed, did I understand you right that a small fuel filter can do the = trick? I thought they would only be about 10 cc=E2=80=99s in volume. >>>> I suppose if the pulses are very narrow/short maybe thats all to = takes to damp out the pulses. >>>>=20 >>>> Can I ask the group please. Who had trouble with manifold signal = and what was the solution that worked best. >>>> Paul Lamar advocates tapping the signal from the oil injection = ports. Has/is anyone using this solution? >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks very much everyone. >>>>=20 >>>> Steve Izett >>>> Glasair Super II RG >>>> Reneis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = >>>=20 >>> =20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_B36673F9-3404-492B-9DA0-D8878C673A43 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks Tracy
Ill disconnect and check each = connection.
Does the rpm for the EM3 come from the = EC2 or from Inj #1?

Cheers
Steve

On = 2 Aug 2016, at 1:26 PM, Tracy Crook <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

That reminded me = that my Blue Mountain EFIS caused em2/3 tach malfunction when the BM was = turned off.  Other EFIS might cause similar problems.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 29, 2016, at 18:59, Stephen Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Thanks heaps you guys.
So:
1. EC2 and CAS signal - the EC2 has = got some conditioning on the CAS sensor inputs done by Tracy so expect = this is good and shouldn=E2=80=99t be the problem. Could put the CRO on = the inputs to be sure.
2. Good call Bobby re fault = finding process to disconnect the sky view. Easy to unplug the Engine = monitor.  (should have thought of that, poor process on my = part)
3. Injectors and Staging. Injectors are = standard 4 port Renesis Red and Blue. Blues flow twice as much as = Red=E2=80=99s, so staging is delayed till about 19=E2=80=9D as per = tracy=E2=80=99s guide. 
Parallel Dynon or EM3 = Engine Monitor inputs holding injector #1 open?  Has anyone seen = this phenomenon? Disconnecting one and then both will isolate this as = the cause quickly.
4. I=E2=80=99ll experiment with = both a restriction of 0.6mm (Thanks Christian and Lyn) and a perhaps a = fuel filter to tame the pulses.
Once = again.
Thanks so much for your input.
Steve Izett



On 30 Jul 2016, at 9:19 AM, Christian And Tamara Mcdonald = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Steve
I found it would jump all over the place there was no steady = reading until I installed the restricter, that was installed atop of my = plenum that I made, then I stuck it at the base of the throttle body and = I got a little more accurate readings, but the restricter made all the = differance for me the poor old computer didn't know what to make of it = at first and was backfiring and carrying on and couldn't get a steady = rpm at all. As soon as I changed the position it ran allot better and = smooth.
Now even with 90mm tb and the p port its = like a turbine down to 1800rpm, nice and smooth

Cheers

On = Saturday, 30 July 2016, Neil Unger <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Steve,  I did initially install the MAP sensor = pipes in the oiling=20 holes and it was a total failure due to getting both vacuum and pressure = in each=20 cycle.  Changed it back to just under the throttle bodies and all = was=20 well.  Oil holes definitely not!  Neil.
 
From: steve Izett
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 11:37 = PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Further = testing
 
Hi=20 Christian=20
What did irregular map signals look like in terms of = engine running on your=20 engine?
What engine/setup do you have?
 
Steve
On 29 Jul 2016, at 7:50 PM, Christian And Tamara = Mcdonald <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:
 
Hi Steve=20
Just my 2 cents, I had irregular map signals so I = installed a mig welding=20 tip for .6 wire and that sorted it out simply for me.
 
Cheers
Christian

On Friday, 29 = July 2016, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:
Hi=20 Guys

We did further testing of the = Renesis today. Would really=20 appreciate your heads on this.
Last series of tests we = had this major=20 missing and noise which I think is fuel exploding in the exhaust.
This=20 happens at various RPM=E2=80=99s based on load from the adjustable = prop.
With=20 fine pitch it would spin out to just over 7000rpm before striking = this=20 mayhem.
With medium pitch it would get to 6000rpm = before the same=20 symptoms.
=46rom memory these were both at about 22-23 = inches of Hg.
My=20 Wideband O2 is malfunctioning at present.
The = narrowband response time=20 appears to slow to discover what the mixture is doing during the=20 episodes.

Also still having trouble = with the EM3. Sometimes display=20 reads what appears to be an error message and at other times stops = reading=20 RPM.
The Skyview Engine monitor has the same issue at = the same RPM so=20 appears directly related.
I changed the input on the = Skyview to the=20 Standard RPM input as I incorrectly fed the injector pulse to the = lower=20 voltage input, but this made no difference.

I had wondered if the=20 secondary injectors weren=E2=80=99t getting power and as a = consequence when it=20 staged to all 4 injectors the trouble began.
Using the = EM3 display=20 (staging asterisk) and switching power off to the secondaries I was = able to=20 ascertain that the secondaries appear to be functioning fine.
I did=20 notice that the point of staging appears to be not solid.
This takes me=20 back to Ed=E2=80=99s comments re damping the manifold signal to the = EC2.
Sorry=20 Ed, you might have had it right last week. I thought because it was = running=20 so smoothly up to 23 inches that it wasn=E2=80=99t a signal = issue.
Maybe the=20 wavelength/timing of those pulses at ~6000rpm matches the manifold = signal=20 tap position!

Ed, you mentioned either = small orifice or accumulator.=20 I estimate the volume of the signal line to be approx 18 cubic=20 centimetres.
My gut was that the accumulator required = to damp the signal=20 would need to be an order of magnitude larger. (total guess)
So maybe 180=20 cc=E2=80=99s but thats half a Coke can! Seem=E2=80=99s way to = big.
Ed, did I understand=20 you right that a small fuel filter can do the trick? I thought they = would=20 only be about 10 cc=E2=80=99s in volume.
I suppose if = the pulses are very=20 narrow/short maybe thats all to takes to damp out the pulses.

Can I=20 ask the group please. Who had trouble with manifold signal and what = was the=20 solution that worked best.
Paul Lamar advocates = tapping the signal from=20 the oil injection ports. Has/is anyone using this solution?

Thanks=20 very much everyone.

Steve Izett
Glasair Super II RG
Reneis 4=20 port EC2 EM3 RD1-C







--
Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= br class=3D"">
 


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