X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "James R. Osborn" Received: from mail-pf0-f179.google.com ([209.85.192.179] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.11) with ESMTPS id 8754631 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:16:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.192.179; envelope-from=rxcited@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf0-f179.google.com with SMTP id h14so30560292pfe.1 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:16:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to; bh=lvW9ohhYNpUS6R2jK6jK1Tkadl844s/o1c8eOQYPnJY=; b=X7Er3jnvFLKxckMOuYvxYQ54Hmv6V3l3r/oeVdQWdekL/BEHalt6z1XItWk5Vjhnu5 Jr3VuVV7BwMmFZtbRUZErpSYl8sTqo7aVtUO9FRrdVJO6T4o9VJR/kjFByfCtfxZsCm6 6ISpC5XStOg/ITKqYO1KC2OtxEhd7v77+ipa72yF8V56ieiCrDzpiqIgsu3g7FnfK4pi IJ5PIAzZcfUN8TRhk/TkUO5ubVtPlGImS/DNuLqqvtlf0xmQaLc9CjayykMTHJV2/PVp BHus0xF7AGv7uW387iVVJSXIC06o43iy6EgB8cROSaFv64wClvWhB1174dharrI98Fx4 TYdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :references:to:in-reply-to; bh=lvW9ohhYNpUS6R2jK6jK1Tkadl844s/o1c8eOQYPnJY=; b=SjmLCjcpCZxtwbnhUdJgefzbjR7An2vn/fVj9DYpgmKFnX0k6lY/tTCXv0KPZFI3Ii g/GsbtM6pxf/ZbyMAk6ddW6F/edRu5fNOiigiUXmyRJPN/GiNXc/uZVdFC7NNX5TdAjP UYurJy1dzdh3ppcYo6h46Gv8OjMy390JyUzX19YjvK2LarXcoAI+meM+t75af9i5942x 8irDtrvyqC7mtGKHasYWOrI2n6nF5vhWTS2HhHIFiPgufZOSmRZkVYfnqSJ5u5lOQit8 jsPRrFdtM+WaJwZBkeryVby0wA8Q+8khFt/BBu24D1nF8un2E2iB5reTkXLubXhtwSKZ snvA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLgVDqTscwcqNl6Xxm9CfX4AAPMTaAd6q0cjFe2QhN2ZVQC2BHW+yOFp9udt0sHUA== X-Received: by 10.98.110.195 with SMTP id j186mr1528488pfc.49.1466702183036; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from jrosborn-m62.dhcp.lbnl.us (jrosborn-m62.dhcp.lbnl.us. [198.128.202.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x67sm1432055pfa.56.2016.06.23.10.16.21 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C8B43012-AE0D-479D-806A-7765F55EFF79" Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] rebuild Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:16:21 -0700 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) --Apple-Mail=_C8B43012-AE0D-479D-806A-7765F55EFF79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I am very curious about that plot Bobby. Am I understanding it = correctly that you measured the airspeed over a grid on each exchanger? = So you are hoping for green all over, but yellow is faster than average = so likely robbing cooling from other parts of the exchanger, while red = is lower than average and just not cooling properly? How did you take = those measurements? Very scientific! =E2=80=94 James > On Jun 22, 2016, at 4:16 PM, Bobby J. Hughes = wrote: >=20 > Andrew, > =20 > My coolant heat exchangers are mounted and fed similar to yours. I = also tested the top cowl exit and flew that way for several months. = First let me say the top cowl exit behind the prop worked well and it = had the benefit of better ground cooling for my installation. But I had = too much exit area and it was easier to close up the top cowl exit than = to build a new bottom fairing for the lower cowl. The cowl provides a = nice converging duct picking up the engine heat after the heat = exchangers.=20 > =20 > I have never been able to optimize the airflow through the core after = duct bend. The core area at the wedge entrance sees very little flow. I = ended up feeding each heat exchanger with a 28 sq in opening. Coolant = inlet 58 sq in and oil is 28 sq in. Climb cooling is good but I still = have to limit power or increase climb speed on 95F days. I=E2=80=99m way = over cooled in cruise and partially plug one inlet when the temps are = around freezing or I see coolant and oil temps in the 130 F range. Drag = penalty is probably 15-20 mph.=20 > =20 > I=E2=80=99ve attached an airflow \ speed plot of my coolant east = exchangers.=20 > =20 > Bobby Hughes > RV10 Super Charged Renesis > 290 hours > =20 > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 7:56 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: rebuild > =20 > took some photos yesterday of heat exchangers while motor is out for = new seals. Found a old lifting apparatus from the hospital that is = perfect for removing and rebuilding engine. Radiator and oil cooler are = in the only logical place under the cowl but getting clean air to them = is problematic, cowl is just to tight to place them anywhere else so not = sure what I can do to improve flow, testing with a leaf blower showed = good distribution of air across the exchangers, so maybe opening up duct = entry for more air is a possible solution.other solution seems to be to = move them behind the spar and use a belly scoop.Andrew >=20 > Regards >=20 > Andrew Martin > > +61 0427477144 > +61 8 6365 5648 > +61 8 9924 1145 > andrew@martinag.com.au >=20 >=20 > =20 > On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Jeff Whaley = > = wrote: > Hello Andrew, first congrats on getting airborne =E2=80=A6 if you=E2=80=99= re blowing steam between the housings check them for warping or rather = ensure there is none.=20 > Do you have any pictures of your setup? =E2=80=93 One is worth a = thousand words. > 28 sq=E2=80=9D total air inlet seems a bit small to be feeding both = the radiator and oil cooler =E2=80=A6 my 2 cents worth =E2=80=A6 =20 > Jeff > =20 > From: Andrew Martin [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ]=20 > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:46 PM > Subject: rebuild > =20 > Well, been about 10 days since I steam cleaned the engine during the = first flight, due to work just managed to pull the engine apart, bit of = fun for a novice, must say I was a bit apprehensive but now am wishing I = had built it from scratch initially. for the life of me I cannot see = anything obvious as being a problem so just going to get some o'rings = and reassemble as per the manual. >=20 > Now the whole problem was caused by the idiot operating it, I was so = preoccupied trying to get oil cooling under control I had forgotten that = I had the wrong coolant inlet hose on, I had done this on purpose during = construction as it enables purging the air from the system without the = multiple heat cycles saving time. the needed reinforced hose was still = on the shelf. so there goes, I admit it. and to think Lynn has made = comment about this in his posts recently, I can only kick myself. Nuff = said. >=20 > A few observations > My plane flies beautifully. I'm really happy with it, it feels safe. > The exit air openings on the top front of the cowl work (Peter = Garrison/Mellmoth style). could quite easily see the low pressure area = working above the cowl during the steam clean. coolant on the windscreen = is an annoyance but no worse than flying in rain. Oil could be worse but = a cessna with catastrophic oil leak puts it on the windscreen too. I saw = the very first puff out of the cowl and was able to land within a couple = of minutes with coolant remaining. steam exiting engine between rotor = housing & rear end plate in region of spark plugs. once the engine = cooled down refilled coolant, engine started & ran as normal just slow = pressure leak.=20 >=20 > Oil cooler is 20b Cosmo, but is just not working good enough, think it = is because it shares plenum with radiator and radiator possibly has less = air flow restriction, don't know. will try again when motor is going = then attack the cooling system. May even start from scratch if it tries = to scare me again. >=20 > Currently plenum opens just under the prop 28 sq" diffuses for = 700mm/27.5" to 68 sq" turns about 80 deg up at the firewall base, is = pinched to 59 sq" in the turn into a wedge duct on the back of the = radiators which sit side by side. coolant radiator fin area is 450mm x = 380mm x 60mm, oil 220mm x 290mm about same thickness but denser fins. = air the exits on top front of cowl & 3 exits on bottom.=20 >=20 > I always presumed my cooling problems caused by the exits as I can run = the engine all day at reasonable power on the ground with top cowl off. = but obviously not at rpms capable of collapsing bottom hose >=20 >=20 > Regards >=20 > Andrew > =20 >=20 > This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for = the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. = Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may = correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you.=20 > =20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = --Apple-Mail=_C8B43012-AE0D-479D-806A-7765F55EFF79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I am very curious about that plot Bobby.  Am I = understanding it correctly that you measured the airspeed over a grid on = each exchanger?  So you are hoping for green all over, but yellow = is faster than average so likely robbing cooling from other parts of the = exchanger, while red is lower than average and just not cooling = properly?  How did you take those measurements?  Very = scientific!

=E2=80=94 = James

On Jun 22, 2016, at 4:16 PM, Bobby J. Hughes = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Andrew,
 
My coolant heat = exchangers are mounted and fed similar to yours. I also tested the top = cowl exit and flew that way for several months. First let me say the top = cowl exit behind the prop worked well and it had the benefit of better = ground cooling for my installation. But I had too much exit area and it = was easier to close up the top cowl exit than to build a new bottom = fairing for the lower cowl. The cowl provides a nice converging duct = picking up the engine heat after the heat exchangers. 
 
I have never been able = to optimize the airflow through the core after duct bend. The core area = at the wedge entrance sees very little flow. I ended up feeding each = heat exchanger with a 28 sq in opening. Coolant inlet 58 sq in and oil = is 28 sq in.  Climb cooling is good but I still have to limit power = or increase climb speed on 95F days. I=E2=80=99m way over cooled in = cruise and partially  plug one inlet when the temps are around = freezing or I see coolant and oil temps in the 130 F range. Drag penalty = is probably 15-20 mph. 
 
I=E2=80=99ve attached = an airflow \ speed plot of my coolant east exchangers. 
 
Bobby Hughes
RV10 Super Charged Renesis
290 hours
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 7:56 = PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: rebuild
 
took some photos yesterday of heat exchangers while motor is = out for new seals. Found a old lifting apparatus from the hospital = that is perfect for removing and rebuilding engine. Radiator and = oil cooler are in the only logical place under the cowl but getting = clean air to them is problematic, cowl is just to tight to place them = anywhere else so not sure what I can do to improve flow, testing with a = leaf blower showed good distribution of air across the exchangers, so = maybe opening up duct entry for more air is a = possible solution.other solution seems to be to move them behind = the spar and use a belly scoop.Andrew

Regards

Andrew Martin
<image002.jpg>
+61 0427477144
+61 8 6365 5648
+61 = 8 9924 1145
andrew@martinag.com.au


 
On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Jeff = Whaley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hello Andrew, first congrats on getting airborne =E2=80=A6 if = you=E2=80=99re blowing steam between the housings check them for warping = or rather ensure there is none. 
Do you have any pictures of your setup? = =E2=80=93 One is worth a thousand words.
28 sq=E2=80=9D total air inlet seems a bit = small to be feeding both the radiator and oil cooler =E2=80=A6 my 2 = cents worth =E2=80=A6  
Jeff
 
From: Andrew Martin = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 = 11:46 PM
Subject: rebuild
 

Well, been about 10 days since I = steam cleaned the engine during the first flight, due to work just = managed to pull the engine apart, bit of fun for a novice, must say I = was a bit apprehensive but now am wishing I had built it from scratch = initially. for the life of me I cannot see anything obvious as being a = problem so just going to get some o'rings and reassemble as per the = manual.

Now the whole problem was caused by the idiot operating = it, I was so preoccupied trying to get oil cooling under control I had = forgotten that I had the wrong coolant inlet hose on, I had done this on = purpose during construction as it enables purging the air from the = system without the multiple heat cycles saving time. the needed = reinforced hose was still on the shelf. so there goes, I admit it. and = to think Lynn has made comment about this in his posts recently, I can = only kick myself. Nuff said.

A few observations
My = plane flies beautifully. I'm really happy with it, it feels safe.

The = exit air openings on the top front of the cowl work (Peter = Garrison/Mellmoth style). could quite easily see the low pressure area = working above the cowl during the steam clean. coolant on the windscreen = is an annoyance but no worse than flying in rain. Oil could be worse but = a cessna with catastrophic oil leak puts it on the windscreen too. I saw = the very first puff out of the cowl and was able to land within a couple = of minutes with coolant remaining. steam exiting engine between rotor = housing & rear end plate in region of spark plugs. once the engine = cooled down refilled coolant, engine started & ran as normal just = slow pressure leak. 

Oil = cooler is 20b Cosmo, but is just not working good enough, think it is = because it shares plenum with radiator and radiator possibly has less = air flow restriction, don't know. will try again when motor is going = then attack the cooling system. May even start from scratch if it tries = to scare me again.

Currently plenum opens just under the prop 28 sq" = diffuses for 700mm/27.5" to 68 sq" turns about 80 deg up at the firewall = base, is pinched to 59 sq" in the turn into a wedge duct on the back of = the radiators which sit side by side. coolant radiator fin area is 450mm = x 380mm x 60mm, oil 220mm x 290mm about same thickness but denser fins. = air the exits on top front of cowl & 3 exits on bottom. 

I = always presumed my cooling problems caused by the exits as I can run the = engine all day at reasonable power on the ground with top cowl off. but = obviously not at rpms capable of collapsing bottom hose


Regards

Andrew

 

This = message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the = addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any = unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may = correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you. 
 
<Air = plot.pdf>--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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